View Full Version : Need help with arguments...

03-23-2007, 03:57 PM
If any of you know VT, you know our herd and hunting has been suffering the past years. The state has finally taken on a different approach with antler restrictions etc trying to help. There are many people in the state that feel that there should be NO does shot at all. Bumper stickers saying "If you want to help the VT deer herd, stop shooting doe" etc.

This past youth season, my 11 yo daughter shot a small yearling. Her very first deer. She made a good shot, did the tracking and spotted the deer on her own. She was very proud to say the least!!! and I was proud of her too.

One of her best friends father is one of the dont shoot doe people and every time she's over there, he's always on her about her deer. "How big was your deer again? Were you proud to kill that? I wouldnt even think of letting MY daughter shoot something like that." etc. He's a hunter, just has his differing views.

I dont want him or anyone else taking away from her "moment" and I try to ingrain in her that there's nothing wrong with what she did, and nothing wrong with shooting does, in fact its good management practice.

My question to you is, can you all help me with some arguments when I confont this guy about nagging my daughter? I dont want an argument, I want to give him sound facts etc. I dont expect to sway his decision, just want him to respect mine.

Thanks all!!


03-23-2007, 04:28 PM
You and your daughter should be proud! The hunter that is making those negative statements to your daughter should be ashamed of himself. His behaviour is an insult and embarassment to hunters. He is of course entitled to his opinion but making his opinion known to an 11 year old is immature and rude.

The "facts" in my opinion are that with all the distractions and "wrong" roads our children and grand children are faced with today we must do all we can to encourage and take them hunting.

As far as I am concerned you need not try to justify in any way to this bonehead. This type of "character" is not going to change.

To me, if a deer herd is in such dire straights that we can not afford to cut children a bit of slack the entire deer season needs to be closed .

03-23-2007, 04:54 PM
What kind of idiot tries to squash the excitement of an 11 year old's first deer that was legally taken?!?! I'm sorry, I also can't offer any help. I suspect based on your recount, he's not interested in a logical discussion anyway. You are a better man than me for even associating with him anymore. :mad:

Bob S
03-23-2007, 06:07 PM
This past youth season, my 11 yo daughter shot a small yearling.I am asking this question because of your use of the word "small" in the above sentence. Some hunters misuse the word yearling when they actually are referring to a six month old fawn. A yearling is a deer that is between 1 and 2 years of age. Whether this deer was 6 months old, or 18 months old, will make a difference in my answer. I will shoot doe fawns without hesitation, but I want to be sure I am answering for the age doe you are asking about.

Either way, congratulations to your daughter on the doe.

03-23-2007, 06:10 PM
Man DT, you never told me about that guy! I am of the opinion that all of these, one deer only, no does, no youth weekend etc. types in our state are just selfish and are a big reason there are fewer hunters. They just want to take, take, take and give nothing back! It's really sick!

Tell him to get out of his truck and learn to hunt! lol Actually he sounds like he is not worth your time! Bring your daughter to the banquet next month. She'll be amoung hundreds who will not hesitate to congratulate her! Starting with me!

P.S. I think when you stand next to him if you do confront him he'll back down and deny everything! (DT is what, 6'4" Daron?) Good luck buddy!

03-23-2007, 06:21 PM
Don't bother arguing with the guy. Educate him as to how management is changing because the days of deer being a rarity are gone. Our whole approach must change now that the deer populations are at or above carrying capacity in many parts of the country. A relatively balanced buck:doe ratio and a herd well below the carrying capacity of the land should now be the goal when trying to achieve maximum herd health. There are several reasons for this...social carrying capacity of the deer herd, 'condensed' rutting activity (and a narrower window of fawn-drop dates as a result), etc. You can argue with him all you want, but the best way to convince him is to show him where you are getting your information and let him decide...buy him a subscription to Quality Whitetails...or get him a copy of Deer Management 101 so he can see for himself what the educated are saying about the evolution of management.

03-23-2007, 06:23 PM
My question to you is, can you all help me with some arguments when I confont this guy about nagging my daughter?

First, this guy sounds like an idiot and you are probably wasting your time trying to convince/explain anything to him. However, I would explain to him that if he feels the need to say anything about your daughters deer or anyhting else for that matter, then he should come to you and say it to YOUR face not an 11 yr old little girl-

Congrats to you and your daughter for the TROPHY!!!!!!!

Side Hill Growler
03-23-2007, 06:45 PM
If some idiot did that to my daughter or granddaughter, he would be looking for an orthodontist, cause he would really need to get his teeth restraightened. It's OK to disagree with me if you want, but dont mess with my family.

03-23-2007, 08:09 PM
Any "man" (and I use that term very loosely) that has to trash talk to a 11 year old girl (or any kid for that matter) has some personal issues he needs to have looked at. Your daughter and you should be very proud of her accomplishment.


03-23-2007, 09:01 PM
Give her a hug and then shake her hand and tell her it is from all your internet buddies.

If you really need to remain a friend of this person, just ask him not to bring the deer up in the presence of any member of your family. Then I would probably just stay away from him as much as possible.

03-23-2007, 09:45 PM
please tell your daughter i said, good job and congratulations!!!!!!;)
Tell her that sometimes adults are wrong, and this guy is wrong
Tell the big dummy to read this forum. He may learn something:D

03-23-2007, 10:02 PM
I would avoid direct confrontation with that guy. Frontal attacks are never succeful in such situations. Spend your time talking to your daughters friend, she is far more likely to listen to reason and may be able to convince her father that he is wrong.

robert lawson
03-24-2007, 06:35 AM
It's hard to believe how cruel some people can be. At a time when we are losing our young people to other interest it is hard to believe that any one would take a negative attitude --and then voice it to an 11yr. old. I bet he hasn't got the B@**'s to say it to your face. I would definitely have something to say to this Ole' boy and I guarantee he wouldn't like it.

47 yrs ago I killed my first deer at age 11. She was a young deer and one the most exciting things that ever happened to me. If anyone would have tried to spoil it for me --They would seen a side of my father that I don't think they would have liked.

Just tell her that most real hunters are very very proud of her and that she has started on the greatest journey of her life. Stick close to her and keep that idiot away.

On the shores of Lake Ontario


03-24-2007, 06:51 AM
well i don`t even have to get started on this guy.But does the 11 year old read the QDMA forum? If she does than she will know that there are thousands of hunters out here that are proud of her.For taking the time to learn what our fore fathers have tought us form generation to generation.
And can`t wait till the 12 year old takes a deer this next season.

03-24-2007, 07:34 AM
I agree with the theme. Don't waste your time on the guy, focus your response/time on your daughter. It won't be the first time or the last time she has to deal with adults or children that voice their opinions in a way that doesn't feel good. You can actually use this as a great way to teach your daughter a lesson about differences in people and how to handle it.

I had a similar thing happen with my son, who plays soccer. He was telling his friends about the 2 goals he scored in his game that morning. His friends dad, who is a little league baseball coach and who's sons have a professional batting cage in their backyard told my son that only girls play soccer. He's 8 and was embarrassed and hurt that this guy (who is a doctor) turned his proud moment with his friends into questioning his gender.

When my wife told me, I very casually without a lot of hoopla started talking to my son about all the different things people disagree on and how they express it. I kept it on his level. Like how we like our local professional football team and when we watch the games we sometimes boo the other team. Or when his cousins come over they like to play to Mario and he says thats a baby game compared to spiro. Or when the elections come around and all the TV adds are talking bad about the other person. I told him his friends dad really likes baseball and was just expressing that.

Its all based on opinions and sometimes people express them in ways that hurt or seem mean. The best thing you can do is explain to your daughter that people will not always agree and sometimes when they don't they express their opinions in ways that may not feel good. And keep spending time with her hunting if she likes it.

I'm headed to an 8:30 Sat morning soccer game. Then to plant some food plots. First things firt.

03-24-2007, 08:36 AM
Some people are too ignorant to get it and this guy must be one of them. It probally wouldn't do any good to confront him he'd be to ingorant to understand his errors both in passing our hunting hertiage on and deer management. On a side note my son in law who is 24 and had never hunted went to his hunter safety class this year with all the 10-12 year olds lmao and got to hunt for the very first time i'm sure just like your daughter was very exicted I told him as long as it wasn't small or have spots go ahead and kill it. He did and it was a young doe which we had tags for and i sure woulda like to have seen that guy try to dampen his exictement at 6'5" and 250 he woulda got a suprise from this happy little boy. Tell your daughter congradulations and just ignore people that just don't get it.

03-24-2007, 08:45 AM
One of her best friends father is one of the dont shoot doe people and every time she's over there, he's always on her about her deer. "How big was your deer again? Were you proud to kill that? I wouldnt even think of letting MY daughter shoot something like that." etc. He's a hunter, just has his differing views.

WOW... did he really say those things? I only ask because I know people are sensitive about their children(as they should be) and sometimes tend to overstate things.

If he really said those things, he and I would have a huge problem. You are wasting your time being polite. I would give him ONE warning....stop talking to my daughter like that or else. I would not be polite about it...I would be very direct and to the point. When I left there he would have no doubt about how I felt and what I meant. Id do it right in front of his wife.

I might wait until a bunch of my family and his family were together....then confront him about it...right in front of everyone. Do it verbally...dont have a physical altercation.

You dont need to confront him with facts about deer or QDMA. This has nothing to do with that really. This is about how an adult treats a child.

03-24-2007, 02:30 PM
DT, I think knobby has nailed it....in front of his wife, and have your daughter with you. She needs to know you won't tolerate anyone treating her like that. If you are already her hero, it will make you her superhero.
And thanks for sharing the hunting story. I hope ya'll have many more hunting trips together.

03-25-2007, 07:42 AM
I would like to know what his first deer was. I'm sure it was not a "wall hanger". Tell your daughter congradulations on a job well done.

03-25-2007, 02:09 PM
Give your daughter a huge congratz from me. A trophy is in the eye of the hunter and that sounds like a fantastic first deer.

As for this other guy, not sure you can say anything to get through to him at all. About the only factual thing you may be able to present to him is that the closer to 1-1 the buck vs doe ratio is the healthier the deer herd will be. By shooting more does the mature bucks don't have to work as hard to breed all the does each year. And that leads to less winter kill bucks, insuring that a very high majority of the herd is bred each year, and much better overall hunting, especially for mature "trophy" class bucks.

You will never have a mature and healthy deer herd by killing small immature bucks and never killing does. The bucks will work themselves to death trying to breed all the does, and there will be does that don't get bred at all.

If he wants to shoot bucks only, them make sure they are mature (3 1/2 years min). And if he wants more mature bucks don't shoot the small ones. Hard to mature if your dead.

03-26-2007, 09:06 AM
Well all, I really appreciate your comments and encouragement. I was pretty much leaning the way you all stated, not confront him but tell him that he can keep his feelings about MY daughters "trophy" to himself or come to me but he is not to bring them up to her.

Each year since my daughter started hunting, I have tried to ingrain in her that any first animal is a trophy no matter what and she can always change her standards at any time. She's always known that she could take any deer she chose to as her first and it would be a trophy. Her first kill of any kind was a wood duck, very proud, she decided after that to set her sights on a "big duck" so thats what we work toward every year. I told her after getting her deer this year how proud I was of her to take the shot and find the deer. To see the pics you'd think she had her hands around a 10 pt rack!! This year if she see's a small deer again and wants to take it, I wont stop her. I think the whole point is to have fun and KEEP that fun in it for the kids so they continue.

I should clarify, the deer was a fawn. I use the term loosely when I say yearling, sorry bout that.

Knobby, yes, those were quotes. My wife told me what was said and I was livid.

Maya, after she first shot it, it was this guys daughter that relayed the thoughts on it to her. Now the father is still on her months later. They are always messing around with each other joking around, but this is striking a chord.

Ive known this guys views on shooting does etc but instead of confrontation, I just keep my thoughts to myself because as many of you said, Im not going to change his views and no sense in arguing.

Again, thanks all for your encouragement. I will pass on your thoughts to her.


Bob S
03-26-2007, 01:26 PM
As many of the others have said, it probably won't make any difference trying to talk with this guy. If you do, here is some good ammunition for harvesting fawns in northern states. And the last time I checked, Vermont was still a northern state.

"Harvesting fawns may help larger deer, such as adult bucks and does, make it through a harsh winter by leaving browse.
The quality of winter habitat and severity of winter weather are the most important factors regulating deer populations across much of the northern portions of the whitetail's range.

This is particularly true in the Great Lakes Region north of the 43rd parallel (roughly from central New York, through north-central Michigan, to central Wisconsin), where mild winters allow deer populations to build up to unusually high numbers, only to crash later, during the next severe winter.

Such "boom and bust" cycles probably have prevailed ever since whitetails extended their range northward behind receding glaciers. Young of the year — still referred to as fawns in winter —are the pawns squandered in nature's wicked game of winter survival. During good times, fawns flourish and represent a high percentage of the population. However, during harsh winters, they are the first to die — sometimes by the hundreds of thousands.

Why harvest fawns?

There are some good biological reasons why hunters could and, in some situations, should harvest more fawns on extreme northern ranges:

1. Fawns generally represent the most numerous single age class in the population. More fawns typically survive to weaning age than are needed to replace adult mortality.

2. Fawns contribute little or nothing in the way of reproduction the following year. So their harvest has little impact on annual recruitment rates.

3. Fawns are always under-represented in the annual harvest. Given a choice, hunters generally harvest an antlered buck or a doe, instead of a small-bodied fawn.

4. Fawns are the most likely to die during harsh winters. Even during years of high reproductive success, there is no guarantee that a high proportion of the annual fawn crop will survive their first winter and be available for harvest as yearlings.

Being small —Good or bad?

Fawns typically are smaller than adults, which presents certain advantages as well as disadvantages. Cornell University scientist Dr. Aaron Moen points out that fawns entering the winter at below-average weights have certain laws operating against their chances of survival.

Based on Moen's calculations, "More heat is lost by convection (air movement) from a square meter of surface of a small deer than from a square meter of surface of a large deer."

The critical body weight for fawns lies somewhere between 77 and 88 pounds. Animals below this range lose considerably more body heat, and are less likely to survive extended periods of cold weather. By comparison, larger deer are more efficient in terms of energy conservation.

In the South, small fawns often are the result of late births. These fawns may actually experience a metabolic advantage because of their lower food requirements and survive in high numbers where mild winters are the norm.

In contrast, small fawns in the North are more commonly the product of poor summer and autumn nutrition. For them, poor nutrition during the snow-free months is invariably followed by extremely stressful and impoverished food conditions during winter. Few of these stunted and comparatively lean fawns are likely to survive such hardship.

Winter mortality

The recent winters of 1995-96 and 1996-97 will long be remembered as real deer killers throughout the Upper Great Lakes region. During those two particularly tough winters, an estimated 310,000 whitetails died in Upper Michigan alone. Roughly half of them were fawns.

Even during moderate winters, fawns represent 80-90 percent of the total winter mortality. When coupled with browse-depleted winter range, the loss still can be sizable in high-density deer herds containing many malnourished fawns.

In Upper Michigan, for example, the annual death toll of whitetails during the mild winters of the late 1980s and early 1990s matched or exceeded the area's legal rifle harvest, which ranged between 40,000-55,000 deer, annually. Ironically, such winter mortality occurs largely during late winter and early spring — only after each deer already has consumed a large quantity of valuable browse and further degraded the winter habitat.

Fawn tagging studies

Studies conducted in Upper Michigan's Petrel Grade Deer Yard revealed high natural mortality of fawns during their first winter. Although fawns represented only about 30 percent of the yarding herd, they accounted for about 60 percent of the total mortality.

Of 145 male fawns we live-trapped, tagged, and released in the yard, only 47 (32.4 percent) were ever reportedly killed by hunters. We had no information on female fawns because of very limited antlerless harvesting in the area. More recently, similar recovery results were found when biologists examined more than 250 male fawn tagging records from various deer yards throughout central Upper Michigan. In fact, the return rate of tagged animals was an identical 32 percent.

Certainly, not all tagged animals shot by hunters are reported. And, some bucks survive their first winter only to succumb later to other mortality factors. Nonetheless, the available evidence strongly suggests that, on average, only about half of all fawns survive their first winter in Upper Michigan.

Telemetry Studies

Even during very mild winters, studies conducted by Dr. Timothy Van Deelen revealed comparatively high over-winter fawn death rates in Upper Michigan's Whitefish Deer Yard. During three mild winters (1992, 1993, and 1994), 32 percent of buck fawns and 28 percent of doe fawns fitted with radio collars died from natural causes during their first winter.

In northern Wisconsin, Dr. Orrin Rongstad also found over-winter fawn mortality rates highly variable. During some very mild winters none of his radio-collared fawns died; whereas, as many as 44 percent died during some severe winters.

The "Bambi' complex

From a management standpoint, it is unfortunate we call them "fawns." Even when they are seven or eight months old, and even when some are sexually mature, they are still fawns in the eyes of most wildlife biologists, educated hunters, and the general public.

Educated hunters typically distinguish deer as being fawns, yearlings, or adults during the autumn hunt. On the other hand, hunters who know very little about deer biology, recognize only bucks and does. For them, female fawns become "small does," whereas male fawns are "button bucks" or "knobby bucks." Even knowledgeable hunters will resort to such terms to minimize criticism for shooting a fawn.

Regardless of their size, the term "fawn" has a certain stigma attached to it. The general public often envisions them as being innocent, spotted creatures hardly able to toddle on wobbly legs. Regardless of their size, to some, the term fawn is synonymous with "Bambi" —after all, who would want to shoot an innocent Bambi?

The idea that fawns could and should be selectively harvested on northern range is nothing new. In 1975, Dr. Orrin Rongstad issued a University of Wisconsin extension news release entitled, "Shoot Fawns to Help the Deer Herd."

In this release, Rongstad criticized hunters for not shooting more fawns, suggesting that starvation losses and waste would be reduced on northern range if hunters selectively shot more fawns.

He added, "Because hunters with antlerless permits shoot larger animals, the ages of the animals hunters kill differ from the age structure of deer dying during a severe winter. So, killing a deer during the hunting season does not necessarily prevent one from starving during the winter."

In fact, Rongstad proposed that hunters who shoot a fawn should be rewarded in some way, not condemned. "They're helping the deer population," he argued, "more so than hunters who kill larger, older animals instead."

Despite the biological soundness of his proposal, Rongstad was blasted by the ecologically ignorant press for advocating such a revolutionary deer management strategy. Even some wildlife professionals slammed Rongstad, not on biological grounds, but for political reasons.

The sentimental and emotional public just was not ready, neither were deer managers, who were more concerned with providing quantity instead of quality. Deer hunters, who were more concerned with trophies on the wall or large quantities of venison in the freezer, also were not ready.

Bob S
03-26-2007, 01:26 PM
Conclusions and management implications

As with many aspects of deer management, the application of this research depends on your individual situation and management objectives.

If your deer population is at or near the carrying capacity of the habitat (i.e., too many deer), and your goal is to reduce the population, then harvesting adult does, rather than doe fawns, is advised. This reduces the number of breeding-age does and, following the additional natural fawn mortality during winter, the reduction in the population will be maximized.

In contrast, if your population is below the carrying capacity of the habitat, and herd stabilization is your goal, then harvesting fawns, particularly doe fawns, is recommended. Such a harvest mimics natural mortality, makes wise use of a vulnerable and precarious surplus, and has little impact upon the size of next year's deer herd. This also would lessen browsing pressure in critically important deer yards.

The harvesting of buck fawns is somewhat more complicated.

Given that most practitioners of Quality Deer Management attempt to maximize the number of mature bucks in a population, the harvest of buck fawns is generally not recommended.

However, in extreme northern ranges, many buck fawns will succumb to natural mortality even when protected from legal harvest. As such, protecting buck fawns in these areas will have minimal effects during years of extreme winters. However, during mild winters, protecting buck fawns may increase the number that survive the winter and enter the population the following year as yearlings. In either case, a buck fawn is far more "expendable" than a yearling buck if a harvest decision between the two must be made.

In conclusion, harvesting fawns on extreme northern ranges is a logical alternative to massive winter deer mortality and further deer yard degradation. It could be safely implemented even in areas of low deer numbers where no antlerless deer hunting currently exists.

Surprisingly, neither educated hunters nor trained biologists have advocated this harvesting strategy — even in the face of recent massive winter die offs. I cannot help but wonder if the day will ever come when scientific reasoning, instead of human emotions, determines deer management direction?"

Mr. John Ozoga is a former Wildlife Research Biologist for the Michigan Department of Natural Resources. He spent more than 30 years conducting deer research at Upper Michigan's Cusino Wildlife Research Station. He now devotes much of his time to consulting and popular writing and serves as Research Editor for Deer and Deer Hunting magazine. Portions of this article were reprinted with the author's permission from a previous article in Deer and Deer Hunting magazine.

03-26-2007, 01:36 PM
Wow, thanks for the info Bob S.

That was quite a mouthful!!

Alot of information in that post. Im sure 90% would go right over this guy's head and the rest he'd blow off!

The more I read and think about this stuff. I wonder if the easier/more productive approach would be to #1, tell the guy to keep his thoughts and theories to himself and #2, and most important, sit my daughter down and explain some of this stuff on her level so she understands the whole scheme of things better. That way when someone makes comments about killing does or killing small deer (fawns) or the anti sentiment of killng bambi, she can have her own information to present.

Again, I want to thank everyone for their input, info and encouragement.


03-26-2007, 06:22 PM
Wow, thanks for the info Bob S.

The more I read and think about this stuff. I wonder if the easier/more productive approach would be to #1, tell the guy to keep his thoughts and theories to himself and #2, and most important, sit my daughter down and explain some of this stuff on her level so she understands the whole scheme of things better. That way when someone makes comments about killing does or killing small deer (fawns) or the anti sentiment of killng bambi, she can have her own information to present.

Again, I want to thank everyone for their input, info and encouragement.


I think that's a good coarse of action D!

Most of the south facing slopes are finally clear down here! How's your neck of the woods lookin? Tell your daughter only one month remains 'til youth turkey weekend! Good luck!

Bob S
03-27-2007, 03:05 AM
That was quite a mouthful!!

That is why I wanted to know the age of the doe. I needed to know what information to post.

Alot of information in that post. Im sure 90% would go right over this guy's head and the rest he'd blow off!

You are right. If he is a typical, traditional, don't shoot does deer hunter, none of this will matter.

03-27-2007, 06:50 AM
Bob do you have a good article on why doe harvest is is how you manage a herd? I've got a discussion going on another site. Some Vters, as you can see by DT's post, are still stuck in the past. They think you can manage the herd by just shooting bucks. There are those that still don't get what winter kill in the north is all about. Very sad!


03-27-2007, 07:56 AM

The lower areas are starting to open up but at my place on the hill, I have very little open ground showing except a field down the road from me. Hopefully that will change during this week, warmer and sunny.


Same as what Maya asked, maybe if you have info on doe shooting similar to what you posted on fawn shooting, we could use it when talking to these people living in the past here in VT!!


Bob S
03-27-2007, 12:03 PM
This may not be as good as the fawn harvesting article. Here is a link to a QDMA article by John Ozoga.

A Glut of Does Harms Bucks (http://www.qdma.org/articles/details.asp?id=5)

Bob S
03-27-2007, 12:06 PM
Here are my favorite doe harvesting quotes:

"In many areas, deer herds are at or above optimum densities and herd stabilization or reduction is needed. Both are accomplished through the harvest of female deer, the reproductive segment of the herd. In fact, appropriate antlerless deer harvest often is the most important aspect of herd management. Traditionally, does were protected from harvest because of their reproductive role. Today, in many areas, an increased doe harvest improves the social structure and health of the herd without jeopardizing herd size or stability."
Quality Deer Management Association

"Antlerless Deer Harvests: The second objective of quality management is to adequately manage the doe population. In many areas, this means increased antlerless harvest. The antlerless harvest is the most important component of a quality management plan."
Quality Whitetails: The Why and How of Quality Deer Management
Karl V. Miller and R. Larry Marchinton, Editors

"Unfortunately, there are many places in this country where a 40 percent doe harvest is needed and hunters aren`t killing half that. If you`re going to err with a doe harvest, it`s better to kill too many than not enough. you can bring deer numbers back faster than you can revive damaged habitat"
Dr. Harry Jacobson

"In areas with high deer densities, you need to shoot every doe you can legally harvest"
Dr. Grant Woods

"In many areas, if you told hunters they needed to kill a quarter of their does, they would think you were crazy. However, a 25 percent doe harvest is a disaster waiting to happen in most whitetail habitats. For most regions, this number is simply too low to control annual growth."
Charles Alsheimer

03-27-2007, 08:21 PM
Best thing to do is get back in the saddle and both shoot doe next year. Parents have a larger influence than anyone else.

I am always catching myself breaking off twigs and breaking them into smaller pieces as I walk through the woods. Why? Because that is what my dad did the first few times I went with him hunting. I don't even think he knew he was doing it, but I noticed and now I do it for some reason. I've noticed my brother does it also.

03-28-2007, 08:08 AM
Gurf, that is funny....I do the same thing with the twigs. Same if Im sitting on a log while hunting. grab the closest little twig and break it up!!

No doubt, if there is an opportunity, there will be a couple doe on the ground for us again this year. I dont have a problem with that....My family LOVES venison.