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  #11  
Old 09-04-2013, 10:30 PM
sandbur sandbur is offline
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From the Trees and Shrubs of Minnesota book by Smith.

Black oak range is in the counties along the Mississippi and south of the Twin Cities.

Black oak "is known to hybridize with both northern pin oak and with northern red oak, but it is unclear how common such hybrids are in Minnesota."

"Northern pin oak seems to be the source of recurrent claims that the more southeasterly scarlet oak occurs naturally in Minnesota, which it does not."

"Hybrids between northern red oak and northern pin oak are relatively common in central Minnesota."
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  #12  
Old 09-04-2013, 10:33 PM
sandbur sandbur is offline
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I suspect these acorns are a spectrum of the hybrids of NPO and NRO.

Question-can anyone see a difference where the typical NPO with the small striped acorns does better on extremely sand sites as opposed to those trees without the striped acorns that might be a hybrid?

Freeborn-what do you have over there?
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  #13  
Old 09-04-2013, 10:48 PM
new forest new forest is offline
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They don't look much like Northern Red to me. The "Borealis" northern red perhaps (especially the pair on the right), Q. rubra v. borealis. They have a much smaller acorn than the Q. rubra v. rubra, and more of a 'cup' than the flatter caps of v. rubra.

They do seem to look like Northern Pin Oak, Q. ellipsoidalis. The caps are very 'tight' in that none of the scales are loose, they are all matted down. Pure Black Oak caps have a frizzed out margin of the cap from all the loose scales.

Northern Pin can be differentiated from Black Oak, Q. velutina, by the buds. Pure Black Oak will have a very fuzzy / pubescent / hairy bud. Pure Northern Pin Oak will have a hairless / glabrous bud, or with a minute amount of tiny hairs on the bud scales.

The difference is quite striking when you can see some regular, pure Black Oak. Once you find one though, then you will begin to notice how many "Black Oak" buds aren't quite that fuzzy.......there is a lot of genetic introgression from the other Red Oaks in very many Oaks found on the landscape.

I can't remember the details on comparing buds between Red Oak and Northern Pin. That is most likely because I can tell those trees apart by looking at the tree itself. Red Oak grows fast and quickly sheds its dead limbs. Northern Pin Oak has the most persistent dead limbs of any Oak species, even more than Black Oak, which holds them more than Red Oak.

Also looking at the trees from underneath is interesting. Red Oaks have the darkest green to the canopy, and the most full canopy. Black and Northern Pin have a lighter green underside, and less robust canopy with more sunlight in it.
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  #14  
Old 09-04-2013, 10:53 PM
new forest new forest is offline
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I have always thought that the striping of acorns is simply random and don't pay any attention to it.

Buds and acorn caps are the best ways to differentiate Oaks.

In Michigan, a professional botanist studying the Red Oak group said of the areas with both ellipsoidalis/velutina, there is very little that is 'pure'.

Northern Pin Oak does the best on dry sites. Black Oak can hold it's own however. Red Oak can also be found out on dry sands some times too.
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  #15  
Old 09-04-2013, 10:55 PM
sandbur sandbur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by new forest View Post
They don't look much like Northern Red to me. The "Borealis" northern red perhaps (especially the pair on the right), Q. rubra v. borealis. They have a much smaller acorn than the Q. rubra v. rubra, and more of a 'cup' than the flatter caps of v. rubra.

They do seem to look like Northern Pin Oak, Q. ellipsoidalis. The caps are very 'tight' in that none of the scales are loose, they are all matted down. Pure Black Oak caps have a frizzed out margin of the cap from all the loose scales.

Northern Pin can be differentiated from Black Oak, Q. velutina, by the buds. Pure Black Oak will have a very fuzzy / pubescent / hairy bud. Pure Northern Pin Oak will have a hairless / glabrous bud, or with a minute amount of tiny hairs on the bud scales.

The difference is quite striking when you can see some regular, pure Black Oak. Once you find one though, then you will begin to notice how many "Black Oak" buds aren't quite that fuzzy.......there is a lot of genetic introgression from the other Red Oaks in very many Oaks found on the landscape.

I can't remember the details on comparing buds between Red Oak and Northern Pin. That is most likely because I can tell those trees apart by looking at the tree itself. Red Oak grows fast and quickly sheds its dead limbs. Northern Pin Oak has the most persistent dead limbs of any Oak species, even more than Black Oak, which holds them more than Red Oak.

Also looking at the trees from underneath is interesting. Red Oaks have the darkest green to the canopy, and the most full canopy. Black and Northern Pin have a lighter green underside, and less robust canopy with more sunlight in it.

Your description leads me to a NPO.

Do you have any suggestions for an extremely sandy site? I have a terrible time with getting any oaks to grow, even on my better soils. I can grow crab apples on that better soil, but oaks are a struggle.
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  #16  
Old 09-04-2013, 11:04 PM
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Whatever Oaks can be found on similar local sites, I would stick with them. So mostly Northern Pin Oak. The Q. rubra v. borealis in the western end of Michigan's upper peninsula have a good crop this year, right at the species northern range limit, though where I have seen them haven't been on classic Jack Pine sand flats or anything like that.

White Oak can take a surprising amount of dryness too; Bur Oak is more cold hardy though. We're not as cold over here, we hide behind Lake Michigan.
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Old 09-05-2013, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandbur View Post
Your description leads me to a NPO.

Do you have any suggestions for an extremely sandy site? I have a terrible time with getting any oaks to grow, even on my better soils. I can grow crab apples on that better soil, but oaks are a struggle.

We are about as dry and sandy as its get up north and black oak is very common. I've yet to identify any other oaks on our property. Growth rate on the natives seems to be very slow with many taking on a "scrub" form.
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  #18  
Old 09-05-2013, 08:21 AM
sandbur sandbur is offline
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New forest-we both must have been typing our response at the same time.

bueller, I have some bur oaks on the sandbox that have been the same size for about 20 years and that is waist high with occasional die back.

I do have a bur in a slightly wooded environment that in the same 20 plus years has grown to become an acorn producer and has gained considerably in size. I have another couple of oaks that I am keeping an eye on. I suspect the slightly shaded environs is a big benefit with our heat and light soils. A north slope helps also.

Tree tubes have been a failure except for one case on a red oak. That is my only success with planting about 100 oaks of various types. My next experiment will be with white swamp oaks in root trappers. I don't expect much success there either but will try them in a somewhat protected location with a higher water table.
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  #19  
Old 09-05-2013, 08:24 AM
smsmith smsmith is offline
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sandbur....you've told me before that you have a layer of clay beneath that sand (at least in some spots). Do you think your oaks could be hitting hardpan?
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  #20  
Old 09-05-2013, 08:31 AM
sandbur sandbur is offline
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I do have a layer of clay about 6 foot down in the area where the one oak did well.

I should dig down in the areas where the oaks have not done well. Maybe I need cnc's help? I suspect it is just many feet of blow sand without any black sand at all.
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