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Old 06-21-2012, 12:09 PM
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Default Educate me on timber prices, sales

It's come to my attention that a 140 acre timbered tract is for sale at a very reasonable price

I'm trying to figure out some ranges for what a timber harvest might look like, if the timber is even marketable, which at this point, I don't know

I'm looking at this link http://mdc.mo.gov/sites/default/file...nmarch2012.pdf

I have no idea what all this stuff means. This would be in the SW region. It says SW stumpage price, and gives a value for mixed oaks at high and low. Is this for board foot?

How the heck do you read this timber price report?

Bake
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:40 PM
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U need a forester to talk to....probably even walk the farm with one and see what options u have available.

MDC have forsters available for every county and they could give u a good idea on what u have to work with.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by letemgrow View Post
U need a forester to talk to....probably even walk the farm with one and see what options u have available.

MDC have forsters available for every county and they could give u a good idea on what u have to work with.

+1 We are almost done logging 100 acres after 40 years. I have a 9 page contract showing all kinds of prices which is greek to me. I know 27 loads have been hauled at 50,000 lbs. of logs per load. What does that mean to me $$ wise? I have know idea but I trust the forester and operation to a) do a TSI cut to my goals and b) get a fair price for the logs. He was referred from this website.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:11 PM
rrroae rrroae is offline
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Those timber prices are just a guide and are usually reported from mills whose best interest is to under report pricing.


Penn State U. has a similar guide but in my experience, the prices vary dramatically from county to county. A couple years ago, I was having some timber cut and the forester said we should cut some pine. The PSU timber guide said the price should be around .15 cents a foot. We got .85 cents a foot. Granted, this was exceptional white pine but it just goes to show you the variance.


Talk to an independent forester and pay him to walk the land. Tell him you want a prism cruise which is a sampling of different plots on the property and he should be able to give you a rough estimate within 25% of the value.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:17 PM
yoderj@cox.net yoderj@cox.net is offline
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+2

We just got a signed contract for a timber company to thin our pines. We hired a forester and with was VERY WELL WORTH IT! They are paid by you out of the sale proceeds. Our forester put ours out for competitive bit. He was great. He worked hand in hand with our department of game wildlife biologist. We talked to both of them about both our timber and wildlife objectives. Together we formed a long-term plan for our land. It includes thinning, clear-cutting, and fire rotations over different sections. The forester was great help in advising us about what we could put in the contract to protect our interests. He also understood industry standard practices and was able to advise us when some particular clause we wanted had to be modified or no company would touch it. In the end, we found a very good compromise and feel very good about our contract. The cut will occur within the next 20 months. (Note: we excluded harvest during deer season in the contract). This will both produce income and improve our habitat at the same time.

Our contract is priced by the ton of different kinds of lumber (pole timber, saw logs, etc). The forester marked all our timber stands. We identified spots for new food plots that would also make good logging decks. We put a clause in the contract that requires the logger to return any topsoil removed from logging decks after the operation and to seed them winter rye. The forester will monitor the operation as the timbering occurs ensuring the proper densities for each individual stand for thinning.

Much good will come from this timbering and much of it is due to the forester!

Thanks,

Jack
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:30 PM
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Supply and demand really runs the timber market. What a certain mill needs vs has excess of will drastically change the price they pay.

Now that the sartel paper mill is closed, I'm not sure how that will impact my aspen sales in the future. I don't think it's going to help me any.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:40 PM
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I recently had a forester out to our property. The meeting went well. We have a small piece (40 acres) but some of the feedback on pricing was encouraging. Our land is made up of mostly hard and soft maple, Ash (no borer's yet), Cherry, and Cedar. We are in a lower area with a creek running directly thru the middle of our property.

Even with some of the less desirable species of tree's, the forester thought we could get between $12,000 - $17,000 for a "select cut" commercial timber sale. Not bad I guess.

A questions I have been thinking about is.....Does the "pressure" on the deer herd, specifically mature bucks with a commercial timber sale hurt the property more than help in the short-term?

It sounded like between marking trees for sale, and the bidding process by the loggers would create a huge amount of traffic on our property...Is the risk worth the reward? I just don't want to spook all the deer, that could take years for them to feel secure again....
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiganMan View Post
.......

A questions I have been thinking about is.....Does the "pressure" on the deer herd, specifically mature bucks with a commercial timber sale hurt the property more than help in the short-term?

It sounded like between marking trees for sale, and the bidding process by the loggers would create a huge amount of traffic on our property...Is the risk worth the reward? I just don't want to spook all the deer, that could take years for them to feel secure again....


........



The year we did our select cut, we saw more nice bucks than we've ever had since buying our place. The deer get acclimated to the cutting fairly quickly and soon, the sound of a saw or skidder will be like a dinner bell.



Put up a game camera in a fresh cut area and you'll see what I mean.
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Old 06-21-2012, 02:10 PM
asmith asmith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerb View Post
It's come to my attention that a 140 acre timbered tract is for sale at a very reasonable price

I'm trying to figure out some ranges for what a timber harvest might look like, if the timber is even marketable, which at this point, I don't know

I'm looking at this link http://mdc.mo.gov/sites/default/file...nmarch2012.pdf

I have no idea what all this stuff means. This would be in the SW region. It says SW stumpage price, and gives a value for mixed oaks at high and low. Is this for board foot?

How the heck do you read this timber price report?

Bake

No way to know a fair price for the property until a timber cruise/appraisal is done. Like letmgrow said get the mdc forester or a private professional to do it. You'll be very glad you did, and maybe very sad if you don't.
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Old 06-21-2012, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerb View Post
It's come to my attention that a 140 acre timbered tract is for sale at a very reasonable price

I'm trying to figure out some ranges for what a timber harvest might look like, if the timber is even marketable, which at this point, I don't know

I'm looking at this link http://mdc.mo.gov/sites/default/file...nmarch2012.pdf

I have no idea what all this stuff means. This would be in the SW region. It says SW stumpage price, and gives a value for mixed oaks at high and low. Is this for board foot?

How the heck do you read this timber price report?

Bake

As others have said, hire a Forester. Without seeing it is impossible to put a $ on it. My Dad had 5 acres selective cut, mostly Veneer quality for just under $17,000. I had 40 acres cut taking out alot of pulp for $4500. My son had 40 acres cut for $9000.
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Last edited by Trapper LM : 06-21-2012 at 03:00 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 06-21-2012, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrroae View Post
The year we did our select cut, we saw more nice bucks than we've ever had since buying our place. The deer get acclimated to the cutting fairly quickly and soon, the sound of a saw or skidder will be like a dinner bell.



Put up a game camera in a fresh cut area and you'll see what I mean.

+1 We are leaving the tree tops for bedding and the deer right now are all over the cuts all night.
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Old 06-22-2012, 07:26 AM
huntmgr409 huntmgr409 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerb View Post
It's come to my attention that a 140 acre timbered tract is for sale at a very reasonable price

I'm trying to figure out some ranges for what a timber harvest might look like, if the timber is even marketable, which at this point, I don't know

I have no idea what all this stuff means. This would be in the SW region. It says SW stumpage price, and gives a value for mixed oaks at high and low. Is this for board foot?

How the heck do you read this timber price report?

Bake

This takes me back in time to a decade ago. Neighbor passed away and out of town children/heirs were looking to convert dirt to cash asap. Several potential buyers were in the market, some that easily could have outbid me. While they spent time assessing timber value I was signing a purchase contract at a very good price. I was ecstatic, the seller was happy, the other potential buyers were very upset.
I could cut the timber today and get more than I paid for the property, and turn around and sell the land for 3 times what I paid, and still maintain at least 50% of the gas rights in the Marcellus Shale region.
While not every situation is like that, if it's an attractive piece of land (beauty is in the eye of the beholder) don't miss the buying opportunity while you're trying to be precise with assessing timber value.
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Old 06-22-2012, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntmgr409 View Post
This takes me back in time to a decade ago. Neighbor passed away and out of town children/heirs were looking to convert dirt to cash asap. Several potential buyers were in the market, some that easily could have outbid me. While they spent time assessing timber value I was signing a purchase contract at a very good price. I was ecstatic, the seller was happy, the other potential buyers were very upset.
I could cut the timber today and get more than I paid for the property, and turn around and sell the land for 3 times what I paid, and still maintain at least 50% of the gas rights in the Marcellus Shale region.
While not every situation is like that, if it's an attractive piece of land (beauty is in the eye of the beholder) don't miss the buying opportunity while you're trying to be precise with assessing timber value.

Agreed, if I have the money and want to own a tract of land. I would buy it and then do the walk through...unless it was solely for investment purposes.

If is a hunting farm, then timber sales are just icing on the cake.
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Old 06-22-2012, 10:39 AM
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I made my initial offer (tract wasn't "for sale") based on what I could see from my lot line, the topo map, and arial photos on the county GIS maps.

Once they agreed to sell it, I went in for my walk through before submitting my formal offer and ernest money.

I already had the adjoining parcel, so my interest was limited to two tracts, and the one I got was the better of them.
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Old 06-24-2012, 06:59 PM
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I may be able to help you out some, where exactly is the property located in SW Missouri?
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:27 AM
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Thanks the for the input guys. I was trying to make it make sense from an investment standpoint, as something that could/would help "spring" me into a property that I actually wanted. I can't make it make sense to me though, and I don't actually want the property for hunting. It would have some good general deer hunting on it, but it's not what I'm looking for in a place

I kind of govern such economic decisions by the thought: If you want something, and can afford it, it doesn't have to make sense on paper.

My problem is, I don't technically want the property, just was trying to think of ways it could be an investment that would help get me into a property that I want.

And for investment purposes, it just doesn't make sense to me unless you can/will hold onto it for many many years

Bake
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:43 AM
yoderj@cox.net yoderj@cox.net is offline
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Here is what you have to ask yourself: Is this the time to invest in timberland. Do you expect a sharp rebound for economic growth (timber demand)? Do you expect diesel prices to fall (transport cost) unless you are close to a mill? Where are land prices headed?

Buying hunting land and using logging to generate income and improve habitat is one thing...Investing in timber land is another. We bought our land from a timber/paper company (Mead Westvaco). Every time they timber a property they own, they make a business decision whether to hold the land for the next round of timber or to sell it off. This is a fairly sophisticated analysis specific to the individual tract.
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Old 06-25-2012, 05:31 PM
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Default timber prices

Baker, This is a tough question you ask; How much is timber going for? High quality timber is priced many, many times higher than junk timber. Cherry can be high quality; Cherry can also be junk. Unless you have been involved in the timber business you probably wouldn't know the difference. Many states offer a free walk/consultation from a state forester, some have Master Forest Owner programs like New York State. Check them out as a first step and start learning about timber and lumber before you buy land. It will make a big difference in how you see a piece of woods.
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:19 PM
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Just an FYI as well...for it to qualify as a capital investment, you cannot liquidate any of the timber for 1 year after purchase. To best manage your resources effectively, too, your timber basis at time of purchase needs to be determined, which will help reduce your tax liability when you do decide to harvest some timber.
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:33 PM
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Interesting experience, will be done this week. The prices do vary greatly depending on the logs. The pulp wood for making paper= $400 per 25 ton load of logs, sawlogs for making palletts, ect.= $1400 per load and the hard maple vaneer logs are real pricey.
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Last edited by popeyoung9 : 07-01-2012 at 03:48 PM.
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