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  #21  
Old 02-25-2012, 04:20 PM
maya maya is offline
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That little scion is about 3" in diameter and 50% of the tree now. The honeygold are a lot like ginger gold, but slightly later. They are a little more yellow fleshed, and sweeter. If someone wanted to keep yellow apples on the shelf all season, you plant pristine, ginger gold, honey gold and spur goldens...then goldrush if you can ripen them. Goldrush ripen intermittently at my place in mid Nov.

This tree, I waited 10 years to find out it is rootstock, not sure what variety, but doesn't put many apples on, and they are hard and bitter. Now half honey gold, and chisel Jersey cider.

Ben

Thanks, I was think about Goldrush, but only for a minute or two, than I came to my senses! If I could ripen them it would be durring the rut! Pristine and HG for me!

That's a great pictorial. Have you worked just the central leader to change over a tree? I've tried both ways, topping central leader and working over individual branches, and have had good luck w/ both.
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Old 02-25-2012, 05:01 PM
qdmohio qdmohio is offline
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Ben, thanks for the diagram and pictures, that helps me.

So which is better, basically "starting over" by cutting the old tree off at the trunk and "crown" grafting, or cutting the tree back to a skeleton "frame" and bark grafting on the end of each of those limbs? Seems like the "crown" grafting would be easier in terms of taking less time to do the initial work, but does it also take a little more time before it is fruiting since you're basically re-building the central structure of the tree?

If you're cutting the whole thing off and basically starting from scratch on the old central leader, I definitely understand the nurse limb concept. What about if you're just cutting the limbs back to a skeleton frame and bark grafting on the ends, is there enough of the original tree there still that you don't need to leave an un-cut nurse limb, or do you still need a nurse limb?

The trees I'm wanting to work over are very healthy, I just don't like the apples and don't want to spend the time and effort taking care of trees that bear apples that aren't appealing to me and my family.

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  #23  
Old 02-25-2012, 05:07 PM
qdmohio qdmohio is offline
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Maya, is that tree in the foreground one that you just cut back to the main trunk and completely started a new tree on? Hard to tell for sure in the pic, looks like the central leader is much smaller just above those lower scaffold limbs than it is below them. How many years old is the "new" part of the tree in that pic? Is it bearing yet?
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Old 02-25-2012, 05:32 PM
maya maya is offline
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Whoops, my bad, That is from the UVM hort farm. Anyways, yes it was cut off just above the first scaffold with one branch left as a nurse branch for the first year. I beieve they were in their 5-7 leaf somwhere and produced quite well. This is one of mine last july done the same way.
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:13 PM
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Maya, the tree you speak of at UVM were Liberty topworked to honeycrisp.
I always found it amazing how quickly they came into production. I did
around 50 trees for the Franklin Orchard of which 47 of them were successful.
I too used treekote as a sealent. I have several wild apple trees on my
camp property that I did 5 or 6 years ago. This past hunting season I
still had liberty hanging in the tree in December while the wild apples on
the lower tiers were all gone. I like to topwork in mid to late march in our
area. I have done some in late april but the weather warmed up soon after
and had a poor take that year. When done correctly, topworking can be
very effective in speeding up apple production in an otherwise non-productive
wild orchard.
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  #26  
Old 02-25-2012, 11:39 PM
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Yes, I'm surprised we've not covered it more actually. Any old tree can be made a major deer magnet in 2-3 years for less than $10. No cages or BS to deal with either.

I have 5 or 6 big wild trees in view of stands that drop way too early. I've just written them off. I mean, they bring deer in the area early, but thats about all they do, beside put a little pre-rut fat on maybe.

Top working multiple crowns of 1"-3" cut-offs seems to bear faster from what I've seen.

Replacing the central leader probably adds a year or two before fruiting, and even then the fruit volume is a slower curve.

Replacing the whole leader makes the tree easier to prune, is one big advantage though.

I've done some stupid things like, graft in scions, and prune them off accidentally the next year.

Maya/appleman, what's your observations?

Ben
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  #27  
Old 02-26-2012, 06:44 AM
maya maya is offline
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I didn't think about not having to cage and such Ben great point!

I'm trying everything as far as grafting to improve trees. As you said I have a couple of wild trees that drop early that I have done some change over on, but I'm hesitant to totally change them over. The deer love them, they flock to them and clean them up as soon as they hit the ground, so why change them? I know, it's good to have apples there when it's season and it's good to have something for them post rut, but I like seeing them there early to get some pics and hope they hang around. I do have trees that drop later too so maybe I'll leave the early ones alone.

I have done some reworking of trees that had poor branch angle and such to improve. I've also changed over crabs that the deer didn't care for. (those Indian crabs pictured in earlier posts).

As far as tipes of grafts, by far I prefer bark/ rind, whatever you want to call it. Very easy and they all seem to take for me. I also never understood putting that wound across a branch or leader that a cleft makes, however I could see where it may be stronger to begin with.

One thing I did to practice for those that are just starting, was to use some old wild trees and work them over, that way I wasn't messing around with a good tree.

I've got rootstock coming in this spring to graft. First time I've done it. What graft do you guys like for that?
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  #28  
Old 02-26-2012, 08:54 AM
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I didn't think about not having to cage and such Ben great point!

I'm trying everything as far as grafting to improve trees. As you said I have a couple of wild trees that drop early that I have done some change over on, but I'm hesitant to totally change them over. The deer love them, they flock to them and clean them up as soon as they hit the ground, so why change them? I know, it's good to have apples there when it's season and it's good to have something for them post rut, but I like seeing them there early to get some pics and hope they hang around. I do have trees that drop later too so maybe I'll leave the early ones alone.

I have done some reworking of trees that had poor branch angle and such to improve. I've also changed over crabs that the deer didn't care for. (those Indian crabs pictured in earlier posts).

As far as tipes of grafts, by far I prefer bark/ rind, whatever you want to call it. Very easy and they all seem to take for me. I also never understood putting that wound across a branch or leader that a cleft makes, however I could see where it may be stronger to begin with.

One thing I did to practice for those that are just starting, was to use some old wild trees and work them over, that way I wasn't messing around with a good tree.

I've got rootstock coming in this spring to graft. First time I've done it. What graft do you guys like for that?

Whip and tongue for roostocks, is most common.

I have a few wild trees that make a lot leaves and almost no apples. One, I turned over to sweet sixteen, the other, I need to do still.

I have an early small wild apple that is pretty good to eat, and puts out 20-30 bushel or more, so I wont mess with it. Idoes bring deer in the area starting in August I see them getting early drops.

Ben
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  #29  
Old 02-26-2012, 09:11 AM
maya maya is offline
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Whip and tongue for roostocks, is most common.

I have a few wild trees that make a lot leaves and almost no apples. One, I turned over to sweet sixteen, the other, I need to do still.

I have an early small wild apple that is pretty good to eat, and puts out 20-30 bushel or more, so I wont mess with it. Idoes bring deer in the area starting in August I see them getting early drops.

Ben

Thanks, that's what I was going to do.

I've got one wild tree that has huge yellow apples that drop in September. I dug it up way up in the mountains on the side of the road. I tried them last year, man they were good. Huge tree can't figure out what it is. Any guesses? I just let it go, now it needs a ton of work.
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  #30  
Old 02-26-2012, 12:56 PM
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It has a wild look to it.

Maybe raspberry lowland crossed with a more yellow apple, going by the shape.

Maybe Yellow transparent x Alexander or something?

Sweet Bough.

Ben
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  #31  
Old 02-26-2012, 02:58 PM
maya maya is offline
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It has a wild look to it.

Maybe raspberry lowland crossed with a more yellow apple, going by the shape.

Maybe Yellow transparent x Alexander or something?

Sweet Bough.

Ben

I was thinking Yellow transparent because of ripening and color, although it's even a more pale yellow . The shape is close. It keeps this same general shape but turns a pale yellow.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:25 AM
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Maya,

I've not seen ribs on a YT. The color and leaves look correct. Also, mine ripen in August. I think there is some YT, but mixed with some other variety. Definitely some disease resistance there.

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Old 02-27-2012, 06:29 AM
maya maya is offline
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Ben ,

I'm sure you are right that it's YT mixed w/ something else. It was, as I said something I litterally dug up on the side of a class 4 dirt road way up in the mountains. A friend told me there was a planted orchard up there 50 years ago or so. I'll have to go up and look around some more.
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Old 02-27-2012, 06:56 AM
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QDMO, sorry to steal your thread. I was just thinking, do you have any pics of the trees you want to work?
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Old 02-27-2012, 09:17 PM
qdmohio qdmohio is offline
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QDMO, sorry to steal your thread. I was just thinking, do you have any pics of the trees you want to work?

I'll see if I can get some pics in the next few days. I ordered some "treekote" and grafting tape, and I'm going this Saturday to a friend's place to get some scion wood since I've already pruned all my trees and they've been laying on the ground for a while. I'm getting kind of excited.
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  #36  
Old 02-28-2012, 06:05 AM
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I'll see if I can get some pics in the next few days. I ordered some "treekote" and grafting tape, and I'm going this Saturday to a friend's place to get some scion wood since I've already pruned all my trees and they've been laying on the ground for a while. I'm getting kind of excited.

Practice grafting w/ some of that wood that is on the ground!
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:34 AM
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It might still be ok if its not dried. Cut it open and see if its green and watery inside still.
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  #38  
Old 03-01-2012, 06:34 PM
DeerfieldApples DeerfieldApples is offline
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Here's an attempt at the pictures I was talking about.

Step one, make your angled cut on your scion wood, one side should be longer than the other, maximized the contact with the flap.



Step two, make your flap as wide as your scion.



Step three, insert scion in between the bark that slips away easily if done at the right time. Make sure none of the "green wood" of the the scion is showing.



Step 4, tape the flap shut as tight as possible.

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Old 03-01-2012, 06:35 PM
DeerfieldApples DeerfieldApples is offline
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Step 5, Cover all tape and top of the cut portion of the original tree, make sure to get tops of scions, check in a few hours and reapply where cracking to keep air tight (crew hadn't got to the tops of this tree yet with the wax.



Hope this helps!
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  #40  
Old 03-01-2012, 11:36 PM
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Nice! Deerfield

What variety was the tree, and whats the new variety?

Ben
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