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Old 01-09-2012, 01:33 PM
rrroae rrroae is offline
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Default Good price on 36" Vinyl tree guards(spiral)

Just picked up 125 from Boyers nursery For $1 each. Shipping was only $12.


In my experience, these work very well protecting fruit trees from deer rubbing and mice/rabbit girdling. I also use on my Chinese Chestnut which will get destroyed otherwise.



http://www.boyernurseries.com/supplies.htm






Also, Tree Pro has their new version of the 48" Miracle Tubes for $2.30 each if you get more than 250. I bought 275 and with shipping the total came to $742 but they cut me a deal and gave them to me for $700 out the door. That's $2.54 each for some of the best 4 ft tubes out there.


The new Miracle tubes have the rib at the top and bottom as well as a seem down the side which will break open instead of girdling the tree when the tree gets older. They also already have the good tie clips installed which can easily be re-opened.


http://www.treepro.com/id89.html
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Old 01-09-2012, 01:41 PM
rrroae rrroae is offline
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Here's what the tree guards look like for anyone not familiar.



(image borrowed from Coldstream)







Here's the Miracle tubes.





Note, the Miracle tubes come 5 in a bundle. There will be smaller diameter tubes on the inside bt in my experience, they're still wide enough to work well. Keep this in consideration if you need all wider tubes.
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Old 01-09-2012, 06:20 PM
buckdeer1 buckdeer1 is offline
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I found out that if you do not watch the spiral wrap close it will start girdleing trees,I pulled all mine and put on screen.How does the tube price compare to what QDMA is charging,they always beat the prices I could find so I need to check before this years order
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Old 01-09-2012, 07:21 PM
rrroae rrroae is offline
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I would have tried ordering off QDMA but I think they're keeping their tubes a secret.





I asked the woman at Boyer's nursery and she said they haven't had problems with these girdling trees. I'm sure it can happen. Especially when they get older.

Last edited by rrroae : 01-09-2012 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:25 PM
xtremehunter83 xtremehunter83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckdeer1 View Post
.How does the tube price compare to what QDMA is charging,they always beat the prices I could find so I need to check before this years order


got a link to the ones your talking about?
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  #6  
Old 01-10-2012, 06:02 AM
Apple Man Apple Man is offline
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I have field tested the so called "miracle tubes" in my commerical apple orchard and I can assure you for apple trees it no miracle. Apple trees
like to sucker and the tube becomes an intangled mess of shoots that
are difficult to get at to to prune. Because the barrier is loose it invites
adult egg laying insects that produce a number of bores. Apple trees do
best when a protective barrier is applied that allows air to flow and keeps
the lower trunk from trapping moisture. I hope Ben and Maya weight in
on this because they are both experienced apple growers and certain they
will not back up this product specifically for apple trees. Unlike apple trees,
I am sure these guards are benefical for protecting and growing of hardwood
species such as oak, walnut, chestnut, and maple.
I have used spirals and they can get imbedded in the cambium and have to
be inspected and sometimes adjusted each year. They do not provide
adequate protection from bores but should help protect from sunscauld.
I have been using window screening for years. An idea that I picked up
at the UVM Hort Farm 15 years ago. They affixed a piece of AL screening
around the base. I expanded on that and apply a 26 inch high piece that is
large enough for the tree to grow for several years without maintenance.
I staple inward on both sides with a generous amount of staples which allows the screening to remain tight as the tree grows. In the past 5 years, I have
lost only 1 tree of 350 to voles and no bore damage or sun scauld. There
is no other material that can do that. The Treepro tube has its place in
a land managers tool bag but should not be used on apple trees!
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:33 AM
rrroae rrroae is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple Man View Post
..... Because the barrier is loose it invites
adult egg laying insects that produce a number of bores. Apple trees do
best when a protective barrier is applied that allows air to flow and keeps
the lower trunk from trapping moisture........!




Apple man, were you using the vented Miracle tubes?




I use these for smaller 12-18' seedlings we get from our game commission. For us, the key is getting the seedlings above the browse line of deer as quickly as possible and the Miracle tubes provide the accelerated growth and protection we want. Once we get that growth to the height we want, we take the tubes off and put on the vinyl guards to protect against voles and bucks rubbing.


As for window screening vs spiral guards, we have both. Our 85 tree orchard(ACN nursery trees)up on the hill has the window screening and are fully fenced and the 32 tree orchard on the lower part of the property has the vinyl. We've lost 9 trees up on the hill with the window screening but I admit, we didn't bury the screening into the ground. We've yet to lose one tree with the vinyl guards.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:29 PM
Apple Man Apple Man is offline
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I was provided a free sample of Tree Pro guards after I made a statement
in an article that did not endorse the use for apple trees. After using them
I was even more convinced these guards should not be used around apple
trees.

I have a network of friends in Quebec and Vermont who manage orchards
many times larger than mine. Never have I seen the use of a pro-guard in
a commerical orchard or any of the research centers I have visited.

I don't understand how the screening failed or how you lost trees using this
material. I suspect it is in the way you applied it around the tree. Please
detail to me how you did it. Spirals should work well for voles, but as the
trees gets bigger it becomes more exposed. I have not seen were spirals are
fool proof for preventing bore damage which has been my problem in the past. How did your trees die? Voles?
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:33 PM
rrroae rrroae is offline
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Here's my orchard that I'm using screening.









Here's where I'm using the spiral wrap,







Not sure what killed the others.



Appleman, when you say Tree Pro guards, are you referring the the yellow tree tubes or something else?


I've had very good luck using the vented tree tubes for both crabapple and apple seedlings.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:38 PM
Apple Man Apple Man is offline
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It looks like you use a herbicide around your screened in trees but not your
spiral rapped trees. Is this right? If so are you using a glyposate formulation or a Roundup Concentrate Nice pic's!
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:44 PM
rrroae rrroae is offline
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Good eye!


Using Pronto from Tractor Supply(around 40% Gly) on the fenced trees.




You think I might have lost trees from spraying?
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Old 01-12-2012, 01:39 AM
buckdeer1 buckdeer1 is offline
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The tree pro that QDMA sells is just like tubes pictured in first part.Theyt just get a discount from tree pro.Be sure and get the vented tubes.According to Kansas forestry I was the first person approved for cost sharing several years ago using tubes.After 2 years I had 84% success with forestry saplings.I found that walnut did'nt like them and would top die.The oaks grew good in bad soil and great in decent soil.I also found not to use on crabs or apples.I think they cause extreme sprouting on lower trunks and caused some kind of white fungus.The spiral wrap I put on some fruit trees after that actually didn't expand and started girding the trees so I use wire mesh for fruit now.I have a question has anyone else that uses wire cages around trees noticed that if you raise up to protect limbs it causes the limbs to grow upward even when it is big enough that they don't touch?I buy both my tubes and stakes from QDMA
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Old 01-12-2012, 07:25 PM
Apple Man Apple Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrroae View Post
Good eye!


Using Pronto from Tractor Supply(around 40% Gly) on the fenced trees.




You think I might have lost trees from spraying?

I reviewed the product label for Pronto. It is a herbicide mix of 41% glyposate
and Trimic. Both work through systemic action where as it kills what it
comes in contact with. When sprayed on leaves or tender branches it will
translocate down to the root system and kill the plant. There are a lot
of warnings out there to NOT USE a herbicide around first year planted trees.
One explaination for your loss of trees is that you may have accidently
sprayed some chemical either through the screen or directily onto the
tree. An other possibility is winter kill. Its hard to say without first hand
inspecting your dead trees and gathering more information, but I see a
lot of dead turf in your pictures so you may have killed them.

buckdeer1: I can tell you have experience growing apple trees. Tree Pro is a useful product for trees other than apple. Spirals offer moderate protection and have been found to grow into the tree. It provides only moderate protection from bores.

I don't get too upset if my first tier starts to curve upwards on trees that
that have wire mesh around them. I try to keep ahead of them and make
the enclosure bigger so the branches do not tought the sides. By the time an
apple tree for wildlife is 6 years or olde,r I trim the first tier up to around 4 to 5 feet. A tree grown on M111 or B118 will grow to be a well balanced specimen that any grower would be proud of. Keep in mind the objective here is to produce a fairly large free standing tree where the lower tier is above
the browse line once the fence is removed.
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Old 01-13-2012, 12:36 PM
buckdeer1 buckdeer1 is offline
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My wire fences are 10-12 inches outside any limbs,it's almost like they sense the wire and grow up.Hopefully this year is a better growing season as almost no one had fruit this year.I just ordered some tubes through QDMA and the 48" tube W/48" treated stake is 3.25 plus shipping.Just give them a call and tell them you want to make a tree pro order.This price is only .05 per tube cheaper than ordering from tree pro but every little bit helps
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:54 AM
rrroae rrroae is offline
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Apple Man, appreciate the input.



I'll have to be more careful in the future when spraying. Way too much work involved planting fruit trees to lose some to carelessness.




I'm still going to use those Miracles tubes for my fruit tree seedlings to get them that initial growth spurt. After they get tall enough, I'll switch over to the spiral protectors and later the window screening. It's just a matter of simplicity. Once I see a tree is worth spending time on, I'll take the recommendations I've seen here but until then, we just plant way too many trees to justify the cost and time on a foot tall seedling.







Buckdeer, thanks on the info on the tubes from QDMA. I would have bought from them, even if it cost a little more, to support their efforts.
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Old 01-14-2012, 01:08 PM
Apple Man Apple Man is offline
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I am a little curious as to why you put so much into seedlings and not
a clonal type of known origin? A chance seedling is pretty much a
crap shoot. You just can't predict what you are going to get. I just
don't want to wait 7 or 8 years to see results. A case in point is that
I had once cared for 250 wild apple trees. I prunned, fertilized, and
sprayed them. I was hoping to nurse them back to health and reap
the rewards of trees full of apples for wildlife. I was successful but
only to the point that around 10% gave back what I put into them.
Over the past 15 years, I have grown over 350 trees on my property.
There is no contest when comparing the aggregate effort of growing
nursery stock vs change seedling (wild). The yield efficiency is mush
greater with nursery stock, better disease resistance, more manageable
size, and provide sustainable mast crop for wildlife long after the last
apple has fallen from the wild apple trees. Other than adding diversity
to the gene pool by growing chance seedlings, I am still curious as
to why you would put so much effort into an unknown vs a known variety?
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Old 01-14-2012, 01:21 PM
rrroae rrroae is offline
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Probably the primary reason is that digging a hole on my property for anything bigger than a seedling is a major undertaking. I used the largest commercial pull type auger from my local rental store and it was all it could handle making a hole for my ACN trees.


Also, I'd be willing to buy disease resistant seedlings if I knew of a reputable nursery that had them and where the price was reflective of their size.



The seedlings from our game commission just sounded good. Especially because they are geared towards later drop dates.


From the PGC:

A variety of yellow and red delicious, northern spy, rusty coat, wine sap, Jonathan, McIntosh, Cortland, Rome and Tiedemann as well as others that bear fruit in October and reach heights of 20 to 30 feet.



If you or anyone else thinks there's a better idea of how I should be going about my fruit tree plantings, I'd love to hear it. Heck, the little I know was from what I've read here.
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Old 01-14-2012, 03:44 PM
Apple Man Apple Man is offline
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I had the pleasure to have hunt PA back in the 80's and 90's. The
soils in PA are much different than here in Vermont. I use a 12 inch auger
on a tractor 3 pnt hitch to dig a hole. I use a shovel to open it up a little more. Our soil is a heavy black loam that drains well, excellent for growing apple trees. The large root ball that is typical on the bare root trees I buy are no problem to put in the ground. Our rich soils are easy to work.

The cultvar selection from the Penn Game Commission is not the best
line up if your goal is to have a lot of fruit into October. Varieties
like Mac's and Cortlands have a narrow harvest window and
drop most of their apples over a very short period of time after ripening.
Northern Spy will get you into October but that's pretty much it. I would
rank your PGC trees as fair if your looking for varieties that hang well.

I had the opportunity to tour the University Vermont Hort Farm and
the Agricultrial Reseach Center Quebec to observe and catalog cultivars that held apples late into season. Since many of the trial blocks
were restricted to no picking for yield analysis, it was my very
best opportunity to learn and understand which apples were best for
wildlife. To date: Honeycrisp, Enterprise, Liberty, Snowsweet, Jonafree,
Northwest Greening, and Fortune 429, are my favorites. The jury is not
in yet, but I expect Frostbite to be a good one too! My compliments to
Maya and Ben for bringing to my attention Galarina, which I am dying
to try.

My advice to you is to be careful when you purchase apple trees from
State and Federal Agency's as well as the advice they give you. The
best advice comes not from the ones who sell but from the ones having years of growing experience. Seek out a local Orchardist. Ask Ben or
Maya, together they have the years of growing experience.
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Old 01-14-2012, 04:37 PM
maya maya is offline
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Nice lookin trees Rrroae! Here's another orchard supply house I get most of my orchard supplies from, Peachridge. http://www.peachridge.com/pest/rodent.htm

I like the spiral raps for someone that has a lot of trees to care for, but for 50 or less I would use window screen. Also if you are not planing on spraying much the screen works pretty good at keeping borers at bay. Most deer managers are not planting to many trees so I really like the screen. It takes a little more time and a little more expensive but it kills two birds with one stone.

This past year I bought 500 spirals for an orchard but it will be sprayed regularly with pesticides for a host of pests including borers so I'm not to worried about them. I also used window screen on a few "deer apples" that I planted. Both have there place imo.
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Old 01-14-2012, 04:50 PM
maya maya is offline
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Bill, Galarina was Bens advise. Anyways wait till you grow one, they are gorgeous! I've got a B118 that I planted this past spring that is loaded with fruit buds right now. I'll only let it have a few but it's still nice to see it budded out like that. Training is a snap with them too. I did order 10 mm111 for myself, so I'll make sure I save you one!
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