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  #21  
Old 12-13-2009, 02:05 PM
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I wouldn't do a timber sale without a forester helping.



Me either!! Get a forester involved and tell them what you are looking for so they will have the correct trees harvested for ya. A logger may just take what is in their best interest.
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  #22  
Old 12-13-2009, 02:06 PM
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I had a forester write a plan but said since I have such few acres on my 100 that need to be harvest to go with a select timber harvester as I'm only having harvested 20 large oaks per acre (some 36 inch bases) of about 8 acres. He said it wasn't worth doing a "cruise" as big timber companies won't be interested and will tear up the land as opposed to a select harvester. I'm just trying to get an idea what "a tree" might be worth so I don't get jipped. I know the guy, select harvester, so won't but want to make sure getting best deal.

And what is your cut typically as a seller? Do harvesters ever agree to give you a certain percentage of what they sell it for at the mill so there's documentation of what they sold if for and what you get?
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Last edited by scrimshaw33 : 12-13-2009 at 02:12 PM.
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  #23  
Old 12-13-2009, 02:18 PM
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I think 100 is pretty standard for a good sized tree. Obviously there are other variables and some may be worth 200 for high quality/straight trees. If you are harvesting 20 large oaks per acre how many do you have total per acre??
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  #24  
Old 12-13-2009, 02:29 PM
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It's in a location close to the road and is open forest too open as people can see directly to my food plot so have marked it to thin one large oak every 30 ft. There aren't tons of oaks, but unless I remove some I won't get any understory. I also had marked all poplar and hickory and maple to be removed which basically ends up leaving a white or red oak every 30 feet where before it was a tree every 10 feet.

So say a tree is worth $100-$200, what "cut" as a landowner do you typically receive?
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Old 12-13-2009, 02:30 PM
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Sounds like a good plan!!

I think it is usually 50/50.
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  #26  
Old 12-13-2009, 02:51 PM
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I've seen percentage cuts go anywhere from 40-60% to the landowner depending on conditions. Some things that can sway the % one way or the other is ease of removal, overall volume, wetness and repair responsibilities.
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  #27  
Old 12-13-2009, 03:03 PM
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Anyone know what a mature tree weighs on average?

I just talked to the select harvester and he said he pays 50% of whatever he makes in cash.
(wouldn't be surprised he doesn't claim taxes on it). I know the guy and work with his daughter for what it's worth.

He said right now they're paying $50/ton. I have mature red oaks and poplar so not sure if that makes it more valuable or not. I'm pretty much "thinning the area" not clear cutting or anything. I'm also going to have him take out some mature pines that are 50+ years old, past their prime and have already started falling (only have about 20 of those). I would say on total (estimating) I have about 35 mature red oaks (24 inch diameter or bigger--some tilted, not all are straight), 35 mature poplar (most 24 inches diameter, one is 36+ inches), some crappy maple, and some 18 inch hickory.

Just want to think out where I'm going to put some food plots, let understory in/create thick cover for privacy screening--something I started doing myself but then had the epiphany, why not pay someone me to have it done! Plus I was getting so much brush on the ground I'm afraid it might prevent deer from using it and instead border it as it getting almost impenetrable with tree tops. Think he will come in an mulch most of it or atleast remove it if I want him to.
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Old 12-13-2009, 03:12 PM
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I have noticed that deer really like bedding in the downed tops, so IMO, I would leave enough to provide added cover immediately until the undergrowth comes in strong. Deer like them since they can bed in them and have their backside protected from wind and predators.
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  #29  
Old 12-13-2009, 03:18 PM
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Completely agree! However, yesterday I thinned everything so that 30 feet trees were space and it looks like a tornado went off. I cut some 36 inch diameter trees. I will have him leave some. However, my plan was to make my own buck beds with smaller tree tops that I will hinge myself. I just want to get the big stuff out.

Did a little research and it looks like on average a tree weighs 1 ton per cubic meter.

A formula I found online said to multiply by 0.6 times your cubic meter size to account for air space. I multiplied a 24 inch tree x 24 inches by 100 foot (a mature oak) which came out to 6.58 cubic meters or 6.58 tons. If he's getting $50/ton that's about $330, and half of that would be my cut, or $175 for a mature red or white oak...seem fair?
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Old 12-13-2009, 03:23 PM
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Seems like a good price to me!!! I would take that on some big mature oaks that's for sure.
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  #31  
Old 12-13-2009, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimshaw33 View Post
So if I calculate how many 1000 board feet I have based on doyle's rule and compare to the worth of the timber based on local historical values...this I assume is the value of the timber.

Now, typically what would you as a landowner receive after it is logged by a select cutter for instance and he takes his "cut" for his work?

Around Missouri its 50/50 and they take 40% on veneer grade.
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  #32  
Old 12-13-2009, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
I multiplied a 24 inch tree x 24 inches by 100 foot (a mature oak) which came out to 6.58 cubic meters or 6.58 tons.

Where did you get the 24x 24x 100, and what does each number represent? Sorry to nitpick but that doesnt make much sense, and heres why. A thousand board feet of logs weighs between 6-7 tons, depending on species and time of year. An average triaxle log truck in most states can legally carry a 20 ton load. By your calculations your one tree will make up a third of the load, but in 24 inch average timber you need about 8 or 9 of them. Your total tree weight and your sawlog weight are very different. I think you may have been reading a formula that foresters use when determining total volume in a tree for the carbon credit markets. As I stated before too most mills only buy to a certain small end diameter, so thats where your merchantable height stops. Your best bet is to tally board footage volume and convert to weight.
Also, one other consideration: You need to figure out what side of the deal you will get 50% from. Most guys working a percentage deal usually do 50/50 after trucking, and trucking can easily be 20% of the overall value of the load depending on distance. If you and the logger are essentially splitting the cost of trucking you only make 40% of the total delivered price. That means that at $50 a ton, a 20 ton load yields $1000 dollars total. If you are lucky and the trucking is only $200, then you and the logger split the remaining $800. Thats not really the greatest money for quality timber.
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  #33  
Old 12-13-2009, 07:42 PM
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This might help estimate weight since you pick the sizes. http://www.woodweb.com/Resources/RSCalculators.html
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  #34  
Old 12-13-2009, 08:32 PM
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I'm sure it's a poor way of calculating but the majority of the oaks are big (some 36 inches) and about 100+ feet tall, so I just converted 24 inches x 24 inches in width and depth and then converted 100 feet to meter to get cubic meter and how many tons based on 1 cubic meter.

What do you estimate a mature oak to weigh 24 inches+ and 100' tall? I have no clue was just trying to estimate to get a feel for the value.

Good point on trucking costs, pretty sure I would get 50% based on what the mill gives him, that's what he "said" but will get everything in writing to be sure.
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:06 PM
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Scrimshaw,
Every man is king of his forest... but it kills me to think of crashing over 36" diameter Oaks. I'd give 1.5 stones to have those growing on my property.

Like your signature I'm no expert but have fun at timber and deer mgmt. Pretty sure PALogger is a pro and giving your great advice. See if your state forester will give you any boots on ground advice. In IL if they don't have time to do it themselves the state foresters can often mind some cost sharing method to help. Also, it's even more fun once someone who knows what they are doing helps you make better decisions.

All just MHO.
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  #36  
Old 12-13-2009, 09:45 PM
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I know thump, but when you have a whole grove of them it's either keep them there where people can see them from the road or harvest them and let thicker stuff grow while still having the oaks there (keep in mind I"m harvesting red oaks, hickory and maple when given the choice b/t those and white oaks). The area is like 10 useless acres for hunting without harvesting them but they're pretty to look at. Even the soil still has acorns that haven't been eaten since they are right by the road.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:02 PM
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Scrimshaw, that calculator that woodsman324 posted is pretty cool. The thing I keep coming back to though is merchantable height. Even though your tree may be 100 feet tall, you will not have logs that far up the tree. Every market is different, but here mills dont like logs much under 11 inches. The rest of what I cut goes to pulp mills, and every once in awhile we have mills that make pallet parts that will buy some logs. In order to really get an idea what its going to be worth you need to first find out what the mill will actually buy for that $50 a ton. If its only good sawlogs, then you may only have 45 feet worth of material in some trees. Also, you mentioned cutting some poplar, which I'm thinking would be yellow poplar down there.Its much less dense than oak, which means less money. There may be specialty mills that buy that stuff for better than the per ton rates. You may want to look up a few local hardwood mills and see who is buying what. Always good to look into a few other buyers before you get started. It may mean your logger has to cut logs up in a way that meets their specs, but it could result in more money for both of you.
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  #38  
Old 12-13-2009, 10:14 PM
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I caught a guy a few weeks ago cruising my woods along the edge and after I cooled off and we got talking it turned out that he makes wood pellets for the pellet stoves. He wants all my low grade stuff. For his own purposes at his facility he figures in cu ft but when he buys trees he figures in bd ft. He marks the trees and pays up front. He takes the whole tree and even dead ones on the ground if their still in decent shape. He has 2 big chippers to chip the whole tree on site. I told him to get ahold of me after hunting season. I might let him do a 10 acre section and see how it goes.
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  #39  
Old 12-13-2009, 10:43 PM
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I know what you mean though woodsman, I felt like I was committing a sin marking a tree to be harvested, especially a 36 inch diameter poplar (maybe bigger), but then I tell myself it's all for the deer. I just don't have tons to get harvested though I should make some money from them $5000-$10000 I'm guessing. Had the forester come out and he just said it was such a small number to harvest he'd get a select harvester in so not to cause much damage, and my guy is the only one in the area, plus I know him and he has a good rep. It sounds like the larger trees should be worth $100-$200.
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Last edited by scrimshaw33 : 12-13-2009 at 10:46 PM.
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