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Old 02-25-2012, 09:22 PM
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Default Crop oil and nonionic surfactants

I'd like to learn about the differences. I always use nonionic surfactants and sometimes get mediocre results with Clethodim, for instance. Can we get a discussion going about this? Whats the difference and why do different products need different surfactants?
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Old 02-25-2012, 09:59 PM
Jef Hodges Jef Hodges is offline
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In my simple mind I differientiate the two like this, non-ionic surfactant makes water wetter and crop oil makes water stickier. The surfactant allows the water/chemical solution to spread across the surface more evenly and the crop oil causes the solution to adhere to the leaf surface better.

I've always gotten what I consider mediocre results with Clethodim and feel it is just how Clethodim is.
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Last edited by Jef Hodges : 02-25-2012 at 10:02 PM. Reason: additional thought
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:22 PM
shmoopy shmoopy is offline
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Clethodim calls for crop oil. You aren't getting good adherence with Non-ion Surf. That's why it's a poor result.
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:32 PM
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The short version as I understand it...

Surfactants increase coverage of a herbicide.

Crop oils increase penetration of a herbicide.
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bigmike View Post
I'd like to learn about the differences. I always use nonionic surfactants and sometimes get mediocre results with Clethodim, for instance. Can we get a discussion going about this? Whats the difference and why do different products need different surfactants?

Check this link out.

http://www.weeds.iastate.edu/mgmt/qtr98-2/cropoils.htm
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Old 02-25-2012, 11:00 PM
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We generally use non-ionic surfactant when we are using it on something that we don't want to take a chance of burning the foliage of a crop. Maybe crops that will not produce or recover from the burn it may receive from crop oil. Like greens of flowers, trees or brassicas...things like clover will generally recover from foliage burn. At times, we use non-ionic surfactant even in our clover plots. We also use liquid AMS and always get a good kill of grasses.

With clethodim it is important to know what type of grass is your target grass. Different grasses require different rates. Many times mature perinnial grasses require higher rates than the 6-8 oz.
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Old 02-25-2012, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Alpha Doe View Post
....With clethodim it is important to know what type of grass is your target grass. Different grasses require different rates. Many times mature perinnial grasses require higher rates than the 6-8 oz.

AD, didn't you say that for tough perennial grasses we should use like 16 oz clethodim per acre?

thanks
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:05 AM
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AD, didn't you say that for tough perennial grasses we should use like 16 oz clethodim per acre?

thanks

Quote:
Many times mature perinnial grasses require higher rates than the 6-8 oz

When looking at the label you will find that 16 oz. per A is the highest rate. The rate is based on the type and maturity of the target grass. Perinnial and mature grasses may require higher rates than the 6-8 oz. that is usually recommended.
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by whitetail fanatic View Post
AD, didn't you say that for tough perennial grasses we should use like 16 oz clethodim per acre?

thanks

WF, take a look at the label when you have some time to read, it is a lengthy one. It showed numerous rates for various crops and target weeds. Remember if the target weed is at the optimum height you can usually use the lowest rate. If the weed is matured you should use the highest rate. Most herbicides have a total allowable yearly rate per acre which may come into play when you have to make multiple applications in a year.

If you find you are having trouble controlling any weed with the highest rate your target may have developed a resistance to that particular herbicide or you are not applying it at the proper growth stage of the target weed. In this case a switch of herbicides may be required.

Someone posted they believe Cleth calls crop oil. Look at the crop on the label and use the recommended Adj. For instance non-ionic Surfactant is listed for ornamentals, I believe.
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:16 AM
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"Small Plot" is right about the clethodim label... but for food plotting purposes it's hard to see where one would not be following the crop oil recommendations.

Also, cletho/sethox/etc. grass selective herbicides take some time to work, unlike glyo, so adjust your expectations accordingly.
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:01 AM
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I read a few places of people using dish soap(forgot the "right" kind) instead of crop oil?

Anyone care to comment on that?

thanks
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:07 AM
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I read a few places of people using dish soap(forgot the "right" kind) instead of crop oil?

Anyone care to comment on that?

thanks

That would probably work as a surfactant, but not as crop oil.
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:32 AM
whitetail fanatic whitetail fanatic is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallplot View Post
WF, take a look at the label when you have some time to read, it is a lengthy one. It showed numerous rates for various crops and target weeds. Remember if the target weed is at the optimum height you can usually use the lowest rate. If the weed is matured you should use the highest rate. Most herbicides have a total allowable yearly rate per acre which may come into play when you have to make multiple applications in a year.

If you find you are having trouble controlling any weed with the highest rate your target may have developed a resistance to that particular herbicide or you are not applying it at the proper growth stage of the target weed. In this case a switch of herbicides may be required.

Someone posted they believe Cleth calls crop oil. Look at the crop on the label and use the recommended Adj. For instance non-ionic Surfactant is listed for ornamentals, I believe.

Thanks Smallplot. I've never used clethodim before and I don't even have the stuff yet, but I am planning on spraying clethodim and non ionic surfactant over the top of 8 acres planted in white cedar. They are 3 years old and doing pretty good, but there's never been any weed control on them and if I could kill most or all of the grass around them it would make a huge difference. I would just spray a 2 or 3 foot circle around them with gly using my backpak sprayer and a shield, but I've tried that before and it attracts the rabbits to the round areas with dead vegetation and they end up chewing a lot of them off. The area around the tree where the vegetation dies become a "staging area" for the rabbits that are living in the tall weeds and grass. Whatever I do, I need to kill the grass in the whole area otherwise it just attracts the rabbits to the trees. The perennial grass in this area I'm spraying has been there for like 30 years. I will check the label when I get it, but do you think I will have to used more like 16 oz per acre, or will 8 to 12 oz do the job? Just would like to hear from someone who has had experience with this instead of only reading it on the label.

thanks
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jake View Post
I read a few places of people using dish soap(forgot the "right" kind) instead of crop oil?

Anyone care to comment on that?

thanks

Just one word of caution. I have never saw any herbicide label that calls for "dish soap". Most surfactants and crop oils are inexpensive and can be picked up at a local farm supply or where ever you purchase herbicides.

Then you won't have to have the extra foaming properties of the soap to contend with.
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:36 AM
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I just noticed after posting the previous message, there's a yellow exclamation point in the heading. What's that all about? I'm guessing I hit a button without realizing it and that got put in. Anyway, just ignore that if it means anything, I never meant to insert that.
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by whitetail fanatic View Post
I will check the label when I get it, but do you think I will have to used more like 16 oz per acre, or will 8 to 12 oz do the job? Just would like to hear from someone who has had experience with this instead of only reading it on the label.

thanks
Your application rate will depend a lot on what type of grass you are targeting and how tall (maturity stage) of the grass. I have posted links to the label before so I will not do that now. Just do a search for clethodim herbicide label and you will find it.

As far as what rate would be the best, use the rate listed for your specific grasses.
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Old 02-26-2012, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by shmoopy View Post
"Small Plot" is right about the clethodim label... but for food plotting purposes it's hard to see where one would not be following the crop oil recommendations.

Also, cletho/sethox/etc. grass selective herbicides take some time to work, unlike glyo, so adjust your expectations accordingly.

One example might be a clover/chicory plot. Crop oil will do a job on the chicory while the non-ionic will not. You sacrifice some performance for safety. You can often increase the Cleth rate depending on the target grasses to compensate.
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:05 PM
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thanks for clearing that up for me.
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:51 PM
shmoopy shmoopy is offline
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Grass selective herbicides are just that, grass selective. They do not act on either clover or chicory. I use them with crop oil all the time on clover/chicory/alfalfa fields and they only kill the grasses. Stops grass growth in a couple days, then it slowly dies from the tips downward over a few weeks.
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:59 PM
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Grass selective herbicides are just that, grass selective. They do not act on either clover or chicory. I use them with crop oil all the time on clover/chicory/alfalfa fields and they only kill the grasses. Stops grass growth in a couple days, then it slowly dies from the tips downward over a few weeks.

Most "selective" herbicides can hurt a wide variety of plants far beyond the target plants. The general key is that the negative impact on non-target species is much less than the negative impact on target species. Using crop oil and Cleth on clover/chicory can burn the chicory. I've experienced it. Using non-ionics as AD suggests minimizes the negative impacts on chicory.

You are correct my chicory was not killed. It was just injured and set back. The grasses were killed, and the clover showed no signs of measurable impact. The result was that the clover dominated the chicory much quicker than it does when I've used non-ionics.

There is a place for crop oil and a place for non-ionics with Cleth. Read the label. The key is matching the herbicides and additives to your particular situation.
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