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View Full Version : How would you deal with this issue?


sfisher
11-07-2004, 11:03 AM
Earlier, farmland QDM listed a post "not a shooter." I have a situation where my partner and I located a similar buck on our property that we declared "NOT A SHOOTER!" He was a 2.5 yr old 7 pointer with incredible mass and great genetics. I allow some of my friends to hunt on our lease with us from time to time, however, described to each of them that is buck is OFF LIMITS! Well, as you can guess one of our hunters shot him this past Friday. When my partner and I drove up to the stand, we immediately recognized the buck. Our friend told us that after he killed it he realized it was the 7 ptr and apologized. He said the following situation occurred....

The stand is a pop up double bull blind and is set in the corner of a horse pasture, on a hill, overlooking a creek bottom and small stand of walnut trees. He told us it was 6:45 AM, and the buck was chasing 3-4 does down over a hill in the pasture. He said that is was low light but enough to see. He further said that the deer was walking down the hill broadside showing the side that sported the 4 pts. He said the buck looked huge so he threw his gun up and shot. He said that just before he pulled the trigger the buck looked at him and he realized that the buck wasn't as wide as he thought, but was very tall.

This is the one of the largest deer my friend has ever killed, however, it still remains that it's one that we told him not to shoot. He is going to mount it. Nevertheless, for me that doesn't matter so much. One of the problems I know he has is that he doesn't wait and thoroughly look a deer over before he shoots. This same problem led to him shooting a button last year.

What would you do in this situation? Keeping in mind that he's a longtime friend? My partner suggested that if anyone wants to hunt with us that they only be allowed to shoot does the first two years and then one buck every year after. Please make some suggestions!

Muddy Fork
11-07-2004, 05:44 PM
We only own 80 acres, but it's in a really high deer populated area. My wife and I are the only ones who hunt it just because of things like this. But if we do ever let others hunt it they will go by all our rules or they're out for at least a couple years no matter who they are. This should be explained up front so youíre not the bad guy they are.
But I'm not real sure about a 2.5 year 7pointer being one I'd worry about myself. I would have been more upset about the button buck.

Bob S
11-07-2004, 05:46 PM
My partner suggested that if anyone wants to hunt with us that they only be allowed to shoot does

This idea works for me. I invited an old friend from school to purchase an antlerless tag this year and come out and shoot a doe during the muzzleloader season. He said he didn`t shoot does. He won`t be hunting on my property. I refuse to allow anyone other than my dad and brother to shoot bucks on my place.

One of the problems I know he has is that he doesn't wait and thoroughly look a deer over before he shoots.

This doesn`t sound like someone who should be hunting on a QDM managed property. He is your friend, the decision is yours to make.

perchjerker
11-07-2004, 07:30 PM
I have a buddy with a club right on the Alabama river in the Black Belt.If you hunt his club you are hunting does only.You are informed that there is a $500 trophy fee on ALL BUCKS.If you kill a mountable (130+) buck they are thrilled for you.$500 to kill a deer like that is cheap.If you kill a spike well,its your $500 spike. Its your trigger finger,you make the choice.the money can into planting. I'd be upset over the sevenpoint too.
A button buck is considered an antlerless deer,that happens all the time. It can be avoided by educating hunters that a small deer alone is usually a button buck. Tell them only to harvest
does when there are several of them together.

4x4man514
11-07-2004, 08:20 PM
im with pj.we have people on our club "slip" every year.but it only costs them $100.oufr first buck must score 100 and the second 120.its a shame to see a deer get taken that wouldve been great in the future but the only real way to keep it from happening is to surround yourself wth other huntersthat have your same experience.if a person has killed plenty of 100 class bucks in his life,he will have no problem letting one walk.if he has only killed a few then $100 or $500 likely will not stop him.somebody that uses the low light or long distance or bushes excuse should not be out there.ive let plenty of shooters walk just because i couldnt see good enough.theres always tomorrow.one thing i do is that if i have to decide how big he is, then he aint big enough.when he is big enough my nerves will let me know!

Thayer.qdma
11-07-2004, 08:47 PM
Are you able to put him on the lease so he has a financial responsibilty also? I think you might have to hit him in the pocket book to get him to slow down. Friends are friends due to our choice to have a short memory span for the bad things that happen between friends. You will have to decide, but I think that getting him to slow down is key.

Muddy Fork
11-07-2004, 10:20 PM
Several years ago I had two antlerless deer come in on me with one being twice the size as the other. At 50y I shoot the bigger one only to find out it was a big button buck. Two years ago my wife had three deer come in on her two antlerless being chased by a small six pointer she shoot the biggest antlerless deer which was a button buck. Just last night I had 6 deer come in on me and I know one was a button buck, another was a small fork, and at least one was a doe because I took the time and identified her and an hour later she was riding on the back of my ATV. I've had a few button bucks come in by themselves, but I've had more come in with does or other larger bucks.
I look for nubs if there's none there and I can clearly see that thatís the one I go for. Iíve seen 1.5 with more then 14 judgeable points and who knows that next button buck that wasnít truly identified could have been your stateís next record. Killing button bucks is as bad as it can get. I know mistakes are made and not clearly identify if there nubs on every antlerless deer is the worst for QDM in my eyes.
I know weíre talking about a 7 pointer, but I thought I'd extend a little on the button buck issue again.

VaArcher
11-07-2004, 10:56 PM
SFisher

That's a tough call for you to make, no doubt about it. On the one hand, we have all experienced "ground shrinkage". On the other, this guy could be one of those guys that sees antlers and cannot hold back, thus having to make up a really good excuse. The fact that he is your friend makes it harder, for sure.

To preserve your friendship, the best thing to do is let it go. He messed up, the deer is dead and he probably knows you aren't real happy with him, thus reinforcing the fact that he MESSED UP. Allowing guests to only shoot does will definately solve the problem. Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

farmland QDM
11-07-2004, 11:51 PM
This is something that is going to happen from time to time.If it happens every year I would reconsider hunting with the guy on your lease but keep in mind a good friend might be worth more than a quality buck.

If you have trail cam pics or videos of the bucks you don't want shot, make sure he has plenty of opportunity to study them and is able to recognize the non-shooters.

perchjerker
11-08-2004, 07:46 AM
Putting this guy on the lease is insane! Now you know his history ,hes messed up twice.You can choose not to invite him.Put him on the lease and that option is gone.Hes there
with the opportunity to mess up the length of the season.
Making it clear that the reason hes not being invited, is due you his out of control trigger finger. The impact of not hunting or having to get his own lease is the way to hit home. Once he has
his own lease or club ,then he'll understand. Until you've worked clearing land and planting plots most never understand the management side of hunting. Friends or not,I would not continue to allow him to destroy what I was working for.

Thayer.qdma
11-08-2004, 08:14 AM
First you call my idea insane then answer it by stating exactly what I was getting at. Get him on the lease so he can really know what you are doing. He is a long time friend and probably someone of quality that needs to feel the work and the effort that goes into QDM.
Sorry if I offended you PJ, but take it out on my email not here on the forum!

perchjerker
11-08-2004, 09:36 AM
It was no an attack on you.I just think its a bad idea to reward someone that has a history of messing up.Allowing him to join an established QDM club with his history would be a reward.I might invite him to come help plant plots or clear land brfore making a plot.I would not ask him to join,not until he had proved he could be trusted on the land alone.

cheesehead
11-08-2004, 10:09 AM
I think there is more that goes into this. Most of us have made mistakes.

I would consider what this person does with your hunting land during the off season. If he busts his butt on food plots, maintenance. stand placement, etc. I would be giving him a pass on this. If this is his first visit, I probably would not invite him back to hunt.

It also depends on the friendship, how good of a friend is he? There is an article in a recent Deer and Deer Hunting about a buck that busted up a lifetime friendship. It is a little different than this situation but a friendship was the cost.

No deer is worth that.

4x4man514
11-08-2004, 10:50 AM
i agree with cheesehead no deer is worth losing a friend but if you stop taking someone hunting with you and they want to stop being your friend because of that, then they werent much of a friend after all.there should be much more aspects to a friendship then just hunting.

sfisher
11-08-2004, 10:52 AM
Thanks guys.

My partner and I used several of your suggestions and came up with a plan. We're going to ask him not to shoot any more bucks since it's early in the year here. He can shoot as many does as he wants; however, if there is another "mistake" he's out of luck. We'll revisit letting him shoot another buck later in the year provided he does his part in the doe harvest.

perchjerker
11-08-2004, 10:57 AM
I guess I'm differant,several years ago I let a friend in on my lease.We agreed to split all costs equally. Well about the time for planting he paid part of his money.When it came time to clear land for plots and plant,he was working over time.Him being a good friend I did all the work and paid all the bills. I bowhunted he did not. When gun season started ,we hunted together.several weekends passed and I ask him when I could expect the rest of his money.He told me he had been working while I had been hunting and he figured he didn't owe anymore. Even tho it was over $700 I let it slide. I didn't think he was right,but he was a good friend. we hunted several more weeks and saw plenty of young bucks.No shooters, just killing does.Around Thanksgiving he told me he was going to be off a week and was going to bring several guys from work and kill some of those young bucks ,because he figured we had too many.That was the last straw,I ended the agreement ,his season on that property was over.Ii hated to loose a friend,but I has this land 5 years before he wanted on ,I had 6 years of letting young bucks walk,planting food plots,working my arse off. A true friend would have seen the error in his actions . OK tell me I was wrong, and explain why..

4x4man514
11-08-2004, 11:22 AM
i dont think you were wrong ive been in the same situation. did you and the guy do anything together besides hunt?
i had a friend we used to hunt,fish ,mudbog, and just all around hangout together.we went in together on a lease and a similar situation happened except it was about a $3000 discrepency.he always said he would pay but after a year i never saw any money.i quit associating with him altogether.over the years i kinda missed his friendship.since then weve become friends again but were not near as close.one thing is definite though we do not nor will not ever hunt or get into any kind of financial ventuire again.he has been bugging me to get in my club for the last 2 yrs but it aint gonna happen.
i have alot of friends that hunt but few of them hunt like me and even fewer of them are in my club.thats why i said earlier you have to surround yourself with likeminded hunters.hunting buddies and friends can be the same people but theres a fine line and most of my friends will never be in my hunt club.it doesnt mean they are not my friends though.

mobucks
11-08-2004, 12:57 PM
People need to respect your rules, it's that simple. If they don't, then they are taking advantage of your friendship. The best way to deal with this is explain the rules and the consequences for breaking them up-front. It is easier to stay friends with someone by kicking them out than it is to stay friends with them by allowing them to take advantage of you.

bamabuck
11-08-2004, 01:04 PM
Mistakes happen. I hunt with family and that is harder to deal with sometimes, they won't ever go away even if you wanted them to. Last year my brother's friends shot 2 small 6-points. We made it very clear the first time it happened but guess what BAMM another 6-point. Let it go with the friend and gently rub it in at every opportunity-that is what I dosmileys/smiley4.gif . I am the oldest of 4 boys and I have twice the hunting experience than all of them combined. They have recently started hunting about 10 years after me. My father is a turkey hunter and doesn't know the difference between a rub and a scrape. QDM unfortunately has a learning curve and takes time. Your friend will hopfully like to try to kill a larger deer next time, if not don't invite him back. Lets face it, it was a deer if it was a good friend you can enjoy the fact that he shot his biggest to date, if your still upset cut his shirt-tail off or somethingsmileys/smiley16.gif

coonbottom
11-08-2004, 02:01 PM
Yeah don't lose a good friend over a deer. It is after all just a deer. I think you have a good plan by letting him just shoot does. Kind of like a probation period.

sfisher
11-08-2004, 02:13 PM
Perch,

I wouldn't say you were wrong with what you did. I would have advised my friend of the agreement when he decided on his own he didn't owe anymore $. I feel that an agreement is an agreement, thats all. When you start changing things mid-stream you end up with problems. I think he was the one who was wrong. He should have discussed the issue if he thought he was working more than you.

ddhunt
11-08-2004, 06:06 PM
YOU have to set the stage. Personal responsibility these days, gets blown over all the time. If you put in the work, money, time, effort, and sweat equity, the people that hunt your land need to know the direction of your property. I hear a lot of the respondants talking about friendships not being severed by a "deer". Depending on what you consider a "friend", give me a break! A friend does what is "requested" of him/her. If these people don't understand what the rules (GOALS!!!!!!) are and ignore the input previousally given, are they friends? I am not here to tell your who your friends are or not. I do think you have the responsibility to let the individual know how important the "MANAGEMENT PLANS" are. Real quick, how we work these things. Pop and son(me). 200 acres. We can't control these deer. We understand. Button Buck kill-100 dollars. Deer shot at(bow/gun) not recovered-150 dollars. With 2 buck limit in GA, 1 buck kill max off of our property, has to go to the taxidermist or 250 dollars. Are these fines? Heck no!!!!!!!!! Our friends understand all the work my father and I do 12 months of the year. This money goes to the "fertilizer fund". ALL the money goes to the land to hopefully provide for the future deer. Sorry for the rampage, but the real deal is DISCIPLINE. Be Safe!! DKW

SitnWait
01-04-2005, 05:21 PM
I don't want to dig up old bones, but since I am one of the newbies I will ask anyways.

My situation is a little different, I live and hunt on my fourty acres. We occupy the front six acres and the rest is for me to practice what I am learning from all of you (by the way thanks for all the info).

I hunt (facing the north) in the back were we have ten acres of woods. I am looking out over about 25 acres of field shrubs, field trees and alot of cover. My neighbor who is about 80 years old lets a couple of guys hunt his fourty acres.
Now here is the problem. There is a county drain that runs east / west through the center of our property that the deer use to move along becouse of the cat tails and what not. When his guests hunt they dont like to walk the half mile and instead they drive half way back and park along the drain. I can see there truck from my tree stand and whenever I see there truck I know that there will be no deer moving along the drain.
What can be done since they are not tresspassing? Any suggestions?

Caveman Lawyer
01-04-2005, 07:05 PM
Are they allowed to park and walk where they are parking and walking? If it is a situation where they are using county property without the consent of the county (or someone else's property without their consent) maybe you could get the game warden/sheriff involved.

VaArcher
01-04-2005, 07:51 PM
Sitnwait

I'm a firm believer in having discussions with folks that are neighbors when there is a problem, or a potenial for one. Assuming these guys are responsible, you may want to explain that where they park is re-routing the deer on your farm and ask them if they can park somewhere else that wouldn't defer the deer elsewhere. If that doesn't work I would then talk to the landowner. He probably wants to maintain a healthy relationship with you and would be sympathetic to this issue.

Bob S
01-04-2005, 08:00 PM
SitnWait, have you ever asked your neighbor about leasing the hunting rights on his property? Then you could hunt the entire thing and keep other hunters out of the 80. If they are parking on the neighbor`s land with his permission, then there isn`t much you can do.

One option you have, would be to get out your chainsaw and create a thick travel corridor. This would give the deer an alternate route when the drain is blocked.

sfisher
01-05-2005, 09:30 AM
I'd also go the route of trying to lease the land. If that's not going to work, I would explain to the landowner what the problem is. If you are on good terms with him, he may take care of it for you by telling his hunters not to park in the back. I don't think you have a problem yet until you find you can't get satisfaction from one of the suggestions the guys gave you.

Caveman Lawyer
01-05-2005, 10:52 AM
I am confused...are they parking and walking on your neighbor's property or on the county's property?

Caveman Lawyer
01-05-2005, 10:54 AM
Despite my confusion, I do agree that the leasing options could solve the problem.

SitnWait
01-05-2005, 11:51 AM
I am sorry for misleading anyone! I guess I should probably talk to my neighbor first.

Caveman Lawyer,
They are actually parking in my neighbors bean field. There is no problem durring bow cause the beans are still standing but come November 15th the fields are cleared and he drives as far back as he can and then walks the rest. I guess the real problem is the lack of respect for other hunters. Two years ago I spotted headlights out on the field the night prior to opening morning, come to find out that he had driven back there to dump carrots. The next morning being as excited as I usually am for opening morning I arrive at my tree stand 45 minutes before first lite. Then about 5 minutes before sunrise I see headlights coming thru the field again.
Personally I could hike it ten miles on just pure adrenallin alone on opening morning, but seeing those headlites 100 yards from where your hunting is a big bummer!
Thanks for the Ideas (probably knowing the answer before I asked you guys) I will talk to the neighbor and see what we can do.
Mike

sfisher
01-05-2005, 12:15 PM
If all else fails....turn them in for baiting (if that's illegal in your area).

SitnWait
01-05-2005, 12:26 PM
Baiting is legal, but being in the woods the nite before opening morning should be illegal...
smileys/smiley7.gif

Deerguy132
01-15-2005, 02:46 AM
This is what I do on my lease. Whoever hunts...PAYS...period. they also must show up and put in the long hours on the food plots like everyone else. This puts them in a situation where they have a personal interest in making things better. First and foremost however, choose who you let on the land wisely and explain the rules to him. emphasise the fact that the others on the land are watching. Peer pressure is a great regulator in these situations. but once the guy has been given access it would be a cold day before I lost a friend over a piece of land or a deer.