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bogie1
07-01-2012, 08:51 PM
Ok i saw this the other day and it did get my curiousity up. There is a company selling cedar posts that are infused with deer scent with the idea being if these are placed where your mock scraps are the deer will use them. One could also use these to extend a scrape/rub line already established by deer. The compnay is cedar post rubs. So why couldn't a guy get a few cedar posts, infuse a little deer scent on them and do the same thing?? I am not normally one that has to buy every gimmick or attractant out there(actually I stay away from them) but i just may try this on a limited scale ? Any thoughts:rolleyes:

WiHoyt561
07-01-2012, 08:56 PM
Sounds like one can easily make that for next to nothing. Sounds like a good idea in a way.

bogie1
07-01-2012, 09:02 PM
if you go on the company's site they sell them for $99 bucks a pop I believe. There are a few videos of deer using them as well. I am heading to the local saw mill in the morning to see if they have any ruff cut cedar for sale.:)

smsmith
07-01-2012, 09:07 PM
In most parts of WI you aren't too far from somewhere that red cedars are growing. A few minutes with a chainsaw would net you all the poles you'd need......just saying:)

Jim Timber
07-01-2012, 09:12 PM
This has always intrigued me. We don't have many conifers (I recently planted 300 to change that), but I do have a strong scrape trail. I didn't find any rubs last year. So could I potentially induce some rubbing if I planted a cedar pole?

bogie1
07-01-2012, 09:17 PM
This has always intrigued me. We don't have many conifers (I recently planted 300 to change that), but I do have a strong scrape trail. I didn't find any rubs last year. So could I potentially induce some rubbing if I planted a cedar pole?

your guess is as good as mine. The whole concept of this did make me stop and think, this could possibly work with the second part of that being, "for not alot of money" :D

lone cedar farm
07-01-2012, 09:27 PM
I'll sell you all you want at 1/2 their price including shipping! :D

smsmith
07-01-2012, 09:35 PM
This has always intrigued me. We don't have many conifers (I recently planted 300 to change that), but I do have a strong scrape trail. I didn't find any rubs last year. So could I potentially induce some rubbing if I planted a cedar pole?

I don't have many conifers on the new place either, but every one of them that I do find has one thing in common.....they've been torn up repeatedly. I do think in areas with few conifers that something like this could indeed become a "draw" of sorts.

bogie1
07-01-2012, 09:36 PM
I'll sell you all you want at 1/2 their price including shipping! :D

i am sensing you think this might be a silly notion:D

Jim Timber
07-01-2012, 09:54 PM
I've got a trail intersection with competing scrapes that I hunt over - I think I'm gonna have to try this.

schuylkill co
07-01-2012, 10:01 PM
White cedar or red.. I will cut a pole, add scent and throw a trail camera up on one. Can't hurt...

bioactive
07-01-2012, 10:17 PM
White cedar or red.. I will cut a pole, add scent and throw a trail camera up on one. Can't hurt...

John Ozoga did lots of research on this subject. LINK (http://books.google.com/books?id=cltvQbleiwwC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=ozoga+tree+rub&source=bl&ots=MBMbUC2dUB&sig=Pl852J7AGNwY9axhpcsTa0o1oYQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mALxT6H_I4imrQG8xomPAg&ved=0CEUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ozoga%20tree%20rub&f=false)

I would read it before I paid $99 for a post that you can get for free if you have a woods and a post hole digger:) .

He also did a bunch of research on licking branches. As I remember he found that artificial scent can hurt but it never helped.

If you put a post in the right spot, say at the edge of a small food plot or in the center of a food plot, or on a trail between food and bedding where he can get at it, it will get plenty of the real thing (scent) on it in no time after the bucks get hard antlers.

foggy
07-01-2012, 10:19 PM
White cedar or red.. I will cut a pole, add scent and throw a trail camera up on one. Can't hurt...

Make that pole about 8 feet high.....cantilever a pole off to one side with a manilla rope for a licking branch......and you'll have the whole kit. Scrape and rub in one! :D

Place it near a homemade buck bed....and katy-bar-the-door.

smsmith
07-01-2012, 10:21 PM
Make that pole about 8 feet high.....cantilever a pole off to one side with a manilla rope for a licking branch......and you'll have the whole kit. Scrape and rub in one! :D

Place it near a homemade buck bed....and katy-bar-the-door.

I think that has to be a hemp rope doesn't it? :rolleyes:

bogie1
07-01-2012, 10:27 PM
Make that pole about 8 feet high.....cantilever a pole off to one side with a manilla rope for a licking branch......and you'll have the whole kit. Scrape and rub in one! :D

Place it near a homemade buck bed....and katy-bar-the-door.

ok dumb question, what is special about a manilla rope?:confused:

smsmith
07-01-2012, 10:29 PM
ok dumb question, what is special about a manilla rope?:confused:

Super secret stuff there........

bogie1
07-01-2012, 10:30 PM
Super secret stuff there........

ok I tell you what, you tell me and I won't tell anybody:D

smsmith
07-01-2012, 10:33 PM
ok I tell you what, you tell me and I won't tell anybody:D

I'm not the one to disclose that info. You'll have to find a TL bootcamper who is willing to talk

bogie1
07-01-2012, 10:35 PM
I'm not the one to disclose that info. You'll have to find a TL bootcamper who is willing to talk

oooh i understand, did not know this was a TL thing oh sorry "exclusive":p

lone cedar farm
07-02-2012, 08:06 AM
i am sensing you think this might be a silly notion:D

Buck pole and manila rope work somewhat but paying $100 for cedar pole is...well! :rolleyes:

BSK_
07-02-2012, 08:46 AM
This has always intrigued me. We don't have many conifers (I recently planted 300 to change that), but I do have a strong scrape trail. I didn't find any rubs last year. So could I potentially induce some rubbing if I planted a cedar pole?

Doubtful. From my research, bucks do not "seek out" trees for rubbing. They rub what is available along their travel routes. Cedars in the "right" locations get rubbed year after year (signpost rubs). Cedars in the "wrong" place don't get touched. If cedars aren't available, they will choose other species.

Research on signpost rubs find deer in different geographic locations prefer different species of tree. In the Deep South, specific varieties of cypress are preferred. In drier sites, sassafras is often preferred. Red cedar is preferred in many parts of the Southeast and lower Midwest. Basswood is also highly preferred in the Midwest. Aspen can be preferred in northern climes.

bogie1
07-02-2012, 08:47 AM
Buck pole and manila rope work somewhat but paying $100 for cedar pole is...well! :rolleyes:

you are correct 100 bucks for a deer pee infused cedar post is not in my budget:eek:

foggy
07-02-2012, 08:50 AM
I think that has to be a hemp rope doesn't it? :rolleyes:


You may be right. I've never been to boot camp....so I'm easily confused. All I know is whut I read right here....and I got that 3rd-hand from a camp defector, that we water-boarded till he talked. ;)

(Seriously, I do not know the type of rope to use for the licking pole.)

smsmith
07-02-2012, 08:53 AM
You may be right. I've never been to boot camp....so I'm easily confused. All I know is whut I read right here....and I got that 3rd-hand from a camp defector, that we water-boarded till he talked. ;)

(Seriously, I do not know the type of rope to use for the licking pole.)

I'm not a bootcamper either. Just thought I had heard that hemp was the "only" choice. I think the most important thing is that the rope fibers are soft and absorbent.

fiveyear
07-02-2012, 09:58 AM
You may be right. I've never been to boot camp....so I'm easily confused. All I know is whut I read right here....and I got that 3rd-hand from a camp defector, that we water-boarded till he talked. ;)

(Seriously, I do not know the type of rope to use for the licking pole.)

We are talking about a rubbing post not a licking pole! Right!?:rolleyes:

Jim Timber
07-02-2012, 10:39 AM
Obviously, they're using something...

I have more aspen than I care to count, and more basswood than I want.

The question is if I can induce behavior by adding a MORE prefered post? And that's worth the $15 investment.

BSK_
07-02-2012, 11:54 AM
The question is if I can induce behavior by adding a MORE prefered post?

Doubtful. The behavior is driven by buck age and competition for breeding rights.

shedder
07-02-2012, 11:57 AM
adding a MORE prefered post? And that's worth the $15 investment.

You might be able to get that with a species they like that is uncommon in the area. They really like to whack what is out of the ordinary.

I often wonder if a wax impregnated rub would be good. Something that would hold their scent longer. Something like pressed sawdust mixed with wax.

PalmettoKid
07-02-2012, 12:01 PM
The attempt at micromanaging deer movement is getting annoying.

JMO.

Gator
07-02-2012, 12:33 PM
My local herd rubs but not very much, a little to get rid of velvet and then a little more pre-rut. Once season is over and they are shedding their antlers is a whole different story.

Jim Timber
07-02-2012, 12:34 PM
BSK, I think you missed the part where the trail is already heavily used and scraped up. The deer are there now, so adding a "toy" would only change one aspect of their current routine.

I liken it to a cat's scratching post vs the sofa: the cat is gonna scratch something - might as well give it something intended for and better suited to the task.

This makes me wonder about alternate post construction too - like using floor scrubbing brillo pads as a wear surface.

Cows figure out that big spinning thing feels good (automatic brushing stations).

The rub post ideas aren't very outside the box when you look at the natural behaviors of wild deer.

shedder
07-02-2012, 12:55 PM
BSK, I think you missed the part where the trail is already heavily used and scraped up. The deer are there now, so adding a "toy" would only change one aspect of their current routine.

I liken it to a cat's scratching post vs the sofa: the cat is gonna scratch something - might as well give it something intended for and better suited to the task.

This makes me wonder about alternate post construction too - like using floor scrubbing brillo pads as a wear surface.

Cows figure out that big spinning thing feels good (automatic brushing stations).

The rub post ideas aren't very outside the box when you look at the natural behaviors of wild deer.

I look at it as an experiment. What do deer really want? As I have mentioned before, I think deer get by on what is available but, like us, if they had tech they would likely prefer materials other than wood and dirt to communicate.

In other words, cell phones beat smoke signals.

shedder
07-02-2012, 12:58 PM
This makes me wonder about alternate post construction too - like using floor scrubbing brillo pads as a wear surface

I am not sure what you mean about deer liking floor scrubbing brillo pads?

bioactive
07-02-2012, 01:08 PM
Species is important, but location, location location is more important.

In the spring of 2011 I had to clear an area for a windbreak along the road shown in the picture. We moved them to a new destination feeding area that we wound through a CRP field (arrows).

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy30/jbrauker/Aerial.jpg

Every single basswood we moved got hammered by bucks in the fall--also a couple of white pines and some Norway spruce...

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy30/jbrauker/2.jpg

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy30/jbrauker/3.jpg

Back in the area we moved the trees from, none that remained were hit, even though deer cross through there regularly. It is near a road and is not a site of social interactions, but just night-time pass through to get to ag fields and gardens across the road. Here's an example of a tree that didn't need to be moved--it stands only 150 yards from several that got slammed.

The difference? The physical-social setting.

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy30/jbrauker/7.jpg

You don't need anything fancy to get deer to rub trees. As has been known for a long time, an exposed trunk in the right spot will very likely get hit.

Luckily, all of these trees survived this year, but I am going to need to protect them before the bucks get hard antlers. I need to let them grow to probably 6 inches in diameter or so, which shouldn't take too long for these trees.

Jim Timber
07-02-2012, 01:10 PM
Deer rub to get that damn itchy velvet scab off their antlers (that's MY take on it), so wouldn't they love a "tree" that was better than any other tree at getting that job done?

That's my hypothesis anyway. ;)

shedder
07-02-2012, 01:15 PM
Species is important, but location, location location is more important.


I agree. That said a limby pasture spruce can be in a great locaton here and be untouched until the limbs are removed.

Jim Timber
07-02-2012, 01:16 PM
Bio, the very North section of your arial pic is what my whole property looks like. They rub somewhere, but I haven't found it yet.

I've got a dozen scrapes in a quarter mile on one trail.

fiveyear
07-02-2012, 01:16 PM
We always have cedar rubs in the areas I've hunted in the south. When I was younger about 30 years ago I always thought they sought the cedar for rubbing due to the smell or something else. The older I've gotten the more I believe it is what BSK stated in one his his posts that they are opportunistic rubbers. They rub trees year after year because it is in their travel corridor. And/or it is in a specific location that is a spot they frequent due to food or looking over a field or where they come out of the bottom.

I know on my lease in GA they rub trees year after year.

bioactive
07-02-2012, 01:23 PM
Deer rub to get that damn itchy velvet scab off their antlers (that's MY take on it), so wouldn't they love a "tree" that was better than any other tree at getting that job done?

That's my hypothesis anyway. ;)

I'm sure our own expert on rubs, BSK will probably weigh in, but I will quote John Ozoga on the subject LINK. (http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/hunting/2007/09/anatomy-rub-0)

Quote John J. Ozoga:

Why Are Rubs Made?


Very few buck rubs are made by deer removing antler velvet, a process that's normally completed within 24 hours. Instead, most rubs are made by relatively few dominant bucks to signal their readiness to breed and to proclaim their control over a given area.

bioactive
07-02-2012, 01:44 PM
Bio, the very North section of your arial pic is what my whole property looks like. They rub somewhere, but I haven't found it yet.

I've got a dozen scrapes in a quarter mile on one trail.

You mean the woods area with the numerous small food plots surrounded by cover? In my opinion, whether you are going to get rubs or not depends on the habitat and how much time the deer spend in it.

If the woods looks like this "before" picture, which is at the SE corner of the woods in the areal, then it is unlikely that there will be many rubs. This is an an area I had access to for a number of years but could not change the habitat. It was a deer desert not even worth hunting because no Michigan deer older than 1.5 would be caught here in day time, and at night time they are all out at the surrounding ag fields. They spend so little time in such areas, that you cannot expect much rub activity. No food, no cover, just the prospect of a hunter shooting you from 150 yards through the trees if you did go in there.

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy30/jbrauker/Tree1.jpg

After extensive removal of the canopy, this area is now heavily used by deer and has numerous rubs, scrapes, beds, trails, etc. and they use it in day time throughout the season. This shot was taken only one year after opening the canopy. Now it is 10X more dense in there.

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy30/jbrauker/Tree1after.jpg

It really is all about location, and good locations occur more frequently where there is good habitat, meaning food and cover.

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy30/jbrauker/logtrailplot3.jpg

Jim Timber
07-02-2012, 01:51 PM
My tree density is higher than your before pic.

blumsden
07-02-2012, 02:00 PM
I guess i'm confused. Why is it exactly that your trying to get deer to rub a tree in a specific location? Surely it's not a hunting tactic, because most are done at night around here and i quit hunting rub lines years ago, due to them not being very successful sits.

bioactive
07-02-2012, 02:15 PM
I guess i'm confused. Why is it exactly that your trying to get deer to rub a tree in a specific location? Surely it's not a hunting tactic, because most are done at night around here and i quit hunting rub lines years ago, due to them not being very successful sits.

I frequently witness rubbing and scraping on my properties.

People say bucks do 95% of their rubbing at night and 95% of their scraping at night. That is the down side. The up side is that they do 5% of their rubbing and scraping in day time:).

In addition to that, you have to consider that these kinds of studies, and most hunter observations, are not done on properties that are optimized for deer habitat. In most places, the habitat and cover are not dense enough, or there is so much hunting pressure, that deer do not do many activities in day time. However, if the habitat is great and they do not feel hunting pressure, they will do lots of activities in day time that they normally would do at night. I sometimes have 2-3 bucks in a row waiting in line to work a branch or tree. Then they move on to the next and the next after that. Having a high enough density of these features, plus habitat that makes deer feel safe in day time, is a recipe for seeing lots of scraping and rubbing in day time. These kinds of activities keep bucks up and moving around if there is a high density of such features on a property.

I personally don't place posts because I have plenty of trees. But I probably have areas of 10-20 acres near stands that may have 100 rubs and scrapes on them. These features keep deer on my property in day time.

BSK_
07-02-2012, 04:40 PM
You might be able to get that with a species they like that is uncommon in the area. They really like to whack what is out of the ordinary.


Anything is possible. But again, it is not the pressence of a particular tree that makes bucks make rubs.

BSK_
07-02-2012, 04:42 PM
BSK, I think you missed the part where the trail is already heavily used and scraped up. The deer are there now, so adding a "toy" would only change one aspect of their current routine.

I liken it to a cat's scratching post vs the sofa: the cat is gonna scratch something - might as well give it something intended for and better suited to the task.


But your cat scratching analogy is exactly the point. If bucks aren't rubbing now, they aren't going to rub just because "the right" tree species is introduced. If they had the desire to rub, they would find a tree to rub on and would be doing so already.

It isn't the tree that prompts the rubbing.

BSK_
07-02-2012, 04:45 PM
Species is important, but location, location location is more important.

The difference? The physical-social setting.

You don't need anything fancy to get deer to rub trees. As has been known for a long time, and exposed trunk in the right spot will very likely get hit.


Exactly. It is social structure and social interaction that drive rubbing behavior, not "the right tree."

BSK_
07-02-2012, 04:50 PM
Deer rub to get that damn itchy velvet scab off their antlers (that's MY take on it), so wouldn't they love a "tree" that was better than any other tree at getting that job done?

That's my hypothesis anyway. ;)

As bioactive pointed out, bucks do little rubbing to remove velvet. Rubbing behavior peaks long after velvet falls off (which it will do all on its own, without any rubbing). Rubbing behavior is a form of social interaction. Important chemicals (probably pheramones) are left on rubs, and most large and/or signpost rubs are most likely male-to-male communication devices.

BSK_
07-02-2012, 04:58 PM
Rub densities and rubbed tree size are greatly influenced by herd dynamics and buck age structure; i.e. competition between bucks (although herd health may also be a key player). Buck population plays a role, but it doesn't play as important a role as most hunters would assume.

Over a 10 year period, in my rub density and distribution study (the largest study of its kind that I know of), we measured an increase in rub density from around 500 rubs per square mile at the beginning of the study to rub densities approaching 6,000 rubs per square mile by the end of the project. Although buck population did increase during the study, certainly not anything like the 12-fold increase in rub densities measured. The big difference was herd dynamics. The local deer population went from an unbalanced herd with few older bucks (and no mature bucks) to a very balanced herd sexually and age structure-wise, including an adequate percentage of mature bucks. It was the much increased competition between bucks (especially older to mature bucks) that drove the very high rub densities at the end of the project.

BSK_
07-02-2012, 05:00 PM
I look at it as an experiment.

Experimenting is always a good thing. In fact, buy two posts. Put one where bucks are known to travel near the rut (along a traditional scrape line). Put the other in an area that sees very little buck sign or observed buck movement. See if either one are rubbed.

shedder
07-02-2012, 05:31 PM
You mean the woods area with the numerous small food plots surrounded by cover? In my opinion, whether you are going to get rubs or not depends on the habitat and how much time the deer spend in it.

If the woods looks like this "before" picture,
Off Topic but I love that beech. Around here they all have the canker which spread from here.

bogie1
07-02-2012, 06:01 PM
just an update, went to a local saw mill today and got 6 cedar logs for 10 bucks. The plan is to cut them and try this experiment. Cannot hurt:o

CanOpener
07-02-2012, 07:59 PM
I've seen the cedar post's and the hanging rope first hand and they both worked really well in Southern Michigan. They were set up and around the edge's of food plots. A buck isn't going to walk out to a food plot in the broad daylight to make a rub on it just because it's cedar....but it does give a buck a place to make a scent marking when that is all that he wants to do a certain time of year. At night during the pre-rut bucks are believed to make over 100 scent marking's a night. The more you have on your property the more time a buck will be there. With the aroma and texture of a cedar, it is a natural attractant for a buck to rub. I'm not sure on the rope type......I think they use big rope because those things take a pounding. As long as the deer can leave their saliva on the rope, I believe that is the ticket. Once again...a communication line for the deer.

BSK_
07-02-2012, 08:00 PM
just an update, went to a local saw mill today and got 6 cedar logs for 10 bucks. The plan is to cut them and try this experiment. Cannot hurt:o

Nope, can't hurt. Experimentation is good.

However, be forwarned that bucks far prefer rubbing live trees to cut posts. Now I have seen bucks rub fence-posts and even wood power-line poles, but the vast majority of rubbing is done on live trees.

Daver_IA
07-02-2012, 10:35 PM
I'll sell you all you want at 1/2 their price including shipping! :D

I will do even better, I'll be glad to sell cedar logs for $25! :D

This really does work, cedar logs mounted horizontally for rubbing, but if you need to buy cedar logs from someone else then I will come and draw your bow back for $500 for you. :D

bigeight
07-03-2012, 05:49 AM
I cut down a section of a tree (bass wood) that has a good lateral branch, then sunk it witha power auger til the branch was at chest height. 3 ft deep, 20 yards away from a stand in a clover plot.

Here it is the day of installation: September 1st:
http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o483/MJRUSZ/2011-08-26_18-02-34_877.jpg

November 7th:
http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o483/MJRUSZ/2011-11-05_11-32-37_330.jpg

bigeight
07-03-2012, 05:57 AM
We put up 5 last yeat and they all looked the same by November. I have never had a buck not come the the post for at least a sniff while in the plot. Which is a big deal when the plot is larger. This is a pic of a 2.5 yr old rubbing it while I'm on stand. (Phone pic, sorry)
http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o483/MJRUSZ/2011-11-12_16-53-58_429.jpg

That night i had 5 bucks come to it. All were 1.5-2.5 yrs old, but all hit it in the daylight and all would have offered a verg easy shot.
This year i am trying different species to see if it makes ANY difference. I dont think it will. Any rubbable tree in a open plot will get attention. I will continue to have one in every plot. I havent seen a mature buck use one yet, but they were neat to watch the deer use, and best of all they were the right price..... free!

bigeight
07-03-2012, 06:06 AM
Forgot to mention, they all had scrapes under the lateral branches left on the post. The branches did not last long though, by late October they were all snapped off by bucks.

CanOpener
07-03-2012, 06:49 AM
Good stuff there Big 8.......

blumsden
07-03-2012, 07:09 AM
We put up 5 last yeat and they all looked the same by November. I have never had a buck not come the the post for at least a sniff while in the plot. Which is a big deal when the plot is larger. This is a pic of a 2.5 yr old rubbing it while I'm on stand. (Phone pic, sorry)
http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o483/MJRUSZ/2011-11-12_16-53-58_429.jpg

That night i had 5 bucks come to it. All were 1.5-2.5 yrs old, but all hit it in the daylight and all would have offered a verg easy shot.
This year i am trying different species to see if it makes ANY difference. I dont think it will. Any rubbable tree in a open plot will get attention. I will continue to have one in every plot. I havent seen a mature buck use one yet, but they were neat to watch the deer use, and best of all they were the right price..... free!

I'm no longer confused. That was an excellent idea to pull deer into bow range.

bigeight
07-03-2012, 07:22 AM
That was a neat buck to watch, he was harassing a group of 5 does back in the woods and finally pushed them out in the open into the plot. They ran through the plot about 60 yards away, he was on the same path chasing, then saw the post and came right in to 20 yards.
He locked in on it, put his ears back, head down and was licking his lips on the way in. It was as neat as having a deer come to a decoy. Most bucks investigate as soon as they enter the plot.
These posts also seem to get sniffed/licked by most does in the plot as well. Makes easy work of filling doe tags :D

This year i am going to use about 5 different species for the posts and see if it makes ANY difference. I dont think it will, so in the future i can cut the closest tree to my plot pop can diameter for easier installation ;)

bioactive
07-03-2012, 07:55 AM
We put up 5 last yeat and they all looked the same by November. I have never had a buck not come the the post for at least a sniff while in the plot. Which is a big deal when the plot is larger. This is a pic of a 2.5 yr old rubbing it while I'm on stand. (Phone pic, sorry)
http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o483/MJRUSZ/2011-11-12_16-53-58_429.jpg

That night i had 5 bucks come to it. All were 1.5-2.5 yrs old, but all hit it in the daylight and all would have offered a verg easy shot.
This year i am trying different species to see if it makes ANY difference. I dont think it will. Any rubbable tree in a open plot will get attention. I will continue to have one in every plot. I havent seen a mature buck use one yet, but they were neat to watch the deer use, and best of all they were the right price..... free!

Nice pics bigeight.

I think one of the secrets to basswood desirability is the rope like strands that are found under the bark, and are visible in this picture. Native americans used to make rope from these strands.

I don't think it is the only factor, but I think surface area for deposit of scent is a huge factor with these trees. It seems like a buck simply cannot walk by an exposed basswood trunk in the right spot--i.e. a high usage doe area.

Same thing for branches, any basswood overhanging within reach is going to get hit. If you inspect closely you will see when it is chewed on there are hundreds of fibers exposed. I would guess the surface area for scent deposit is hundreds of times higher than it is on most other species. It is amazing how fast surface area to volume ratios go up with fibrous materials.

Another factor for rubs are what I call "winnability." A tree species that can get easily damaged seems to be more desirable. In my area the basswood is king, but white pine is equally desirable. Bucks will bypass dozens of maples to get to a tulip tree or a poplar tree in the right location. These are softer species and I think they like the outcome of having the trunk all torn up, of "winning" the engagement with the tree and leaving a bigger mark and bigger scent deposit.

This does not mean they will not hit hard species like oak and maple. They do. Any convenient tree may be used. Sort of like a guy who prefers a microbrew but will drink a Bud if it is all he has available.

BSK_
07-03-2012, 08:39 AM
Amazing stuff bigeight. Thanks for posting it. Yup, bucks are going to tear up any isolated tree in a food plot (lots of social interaction in and around food plots). However, I've never seen such activity on man-made poles.

Tap
07-03-2012, 08:48 AM
I'm not the one to disclose that info. You'll have to find a TL bootcamper who is willing to talk

Okay, I can tell you this, but then I have to kill you... use poles from cut trees and not lumber grade cedar.

BSK_
07-03-2012, 08:49 AM
Another factor for rubs are what I call "winnability." A tree species that can get easily damaged seems to be more desirable. In my area the basswood is king, but white pine is equally desirable. Bucks will bypass dozens of maples to get to a tulip tree or a poplar tree in the right location. These are softer species and I think they like the outcome of having the trunk all torn up, of "winning" the engagement with the tree and leaving a bigger mark and bigger scent deposit.

This does not mean they will not hit hard species like oak and maple. They do. Any convenient tree may be used. Sort of like a guy who prefers a microbrew but will drink a Bud if it is all he has available.

Interesting theory bioactive. Much debate has existed over why bucks choose particular tree species for signpost rubs. Some believe they choose aeromatic trees (trees that produce a smell when the bark is broken, like cedar). The problem with this theory is that top-choice signposting species in some geographic locations are not aeromatic, such as basswood. Some argue that trees with soft bark are chosen, yet in some locations very hard-barked trees are preferred, such as beech and maple. But the "winnability" theory is interesting.

In my rub study, I found a definite species preference for large rubs (rubs on large-diameter trees). For small, finger-size tree rubs, the species distribution was similar to what is available in the area. In essence, rubs on small-diameter saplings appear to be just utilization of whatever is there. However, as rubbed tree diameter increased, species distribution decreased; i.e. the larger the rubbed tree, the fewer species used. For the largest category of rubbed tree size, I only found five species used. Those five species, in order of preference, were: eastern red cedar, loblolly pine, tulip poplar, beech, and maple. Interestingly, we have quite a few native virginia pine in the area, but bucks rarely use these for rubbing, for whatever reason. But they tear up planted loblolly pine.

Gator
07-03-2012, 09:20 AM
That night i had 5 bucks come to it. All were 1.5-2.5 yrs old, but all hit it in the daylight and all would have offered a verg easy shot.


Did any mature bucks come out to the plot at all? Just curious if only young bucks hit the post or if only young bucks used it while you were watching.

bigeight
07-03-2012, 09:25 AM
Okay, I can tell you this, but then I have to kill you... use poles from cut trees and not lumber grade cedar.

Yup! We had cedar posts from the lumber yard with manilla ropes hanging from them in the EXACT same spots as our natural ones with cameras watching. No pics, no use, no sightings....we did have a hawk use it for a perch once. Bout as much use as it got in 3 full years:rolleyes: ;)

Our natural ones that we augered in have had as many as 12 different bucks use a single post during daylight in 1 day. (Most 1.5 yr olds )

Geo
07-03-2012, 09:25 AM
Another factor for rubs are what I call "winnability." A tree species that can get easily damaged seems to be more desirable. In my area the basswood is king, but white pine is equally desirable. Bucks will bypass dozens of maples to get to a tulip tree or a poplar tree in the right location. These are softer species and I think they like the outcome of having the trunk all torn up, of "winning" the engagement with the tree and leaving a bigger mark and bigger scent deposit.

Love my basswood, love my cedar, I've never seen a hickory rubbed. Managed property, herd dynamics, location, I had the same trees 7 years ago but no rubs. I used to cut cedars leaving the posts in the ground for rubs but have yet to see one rubbed. I do like Big8's food plot poles.

http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46783&page=18

G

bigeight
07-03-2012, 09:31 AM
Did any mature bucks come out to the plot at all? Just curious if only young bucks hit the post or if only young bucks used it while you were watching.

We only had a camera on 1 of them with no pics of anything older than 2.5 , i have seen a LOT of bucks visit them while on stand, but none have been mature. This year I might put a camera on all of them to get a better idea of whats visiting them. We rarely see mature bucks in our plots, but i have a feeling if one did show up he would visit the post. Every other buck does.

It would be neat to try these in an area that had better age structure. We dont have enough around to monitor habits of older age class bucks.

BSK_
07-03-2012, 09:52 AM
We only had a camera on 1 of them with no pics of anything older than 2.5 , i have seen a LOT of bucks visit them while on stand, but none have been mature. This year I might put a camera on all of them to get a better idea of whats visiting them. We rarely see mature bucks in our plots, but i have a feeling if one did show up he would visit the post. Every other buck does.

It would be neat to try these in an area that had better age structure. We dont have enough around to monitor habits of older age class bucks.

When Dr. Woods was conducting his research on signpost rubbing activity, he trail-cam photographed as many as 13 different mature bucks using the same signpost rub in a single season. Of course, the vast majority of this activity was at night, but that's normal (especially in the Southeast. Northern and Midwestern bucks appear to be far more daylight oriented).

sticknstring
07-03-2012, 11:24 AM
I'm intrigued w/ bigeight's findings and will soon be deploying a "buck pole" into my foodplot. It's a small plot with various crops and the deer are accustomed to feeding in it. Having a Bushnell monitor it w/ HD video will tell the story!

Beechnut
07-03-2012, 11:27 AM
Big8,

Sounds like you've been holding out on us...but that's cool! I think what you've done is an awesome idea, and it's working. Best thing about that is you can take the tree down easily and put another one up between plot maintenance.

Might not work as well for smaller plots (1/2 acre and less) but on big plots...

Keep us posted on how it goes.

shedder
07-03-2012, 11:34 AM
Interesting theory bioactive. Much debate has existed over why bucks choose particular tree species for signpost rubs. Some believe they choose aeromatic trees (trees that produce a smell when the bark is broken, like cedar). The problem with this theory is that top-choice signposting species in some geographic locations are not aeromatic, such as basswood. Some argue that trees with soft bark are chosen, yet in some locations very hard-barked trees are preferred, such as beech and maple. But the "winnability" theory is interesting.

In my rub study, I found a definite species preference for large rubs (rubs on large-diameter trees). For small, finger-size tree rubs, the species distribution was similar to what is available in the area. In essence, rubs on small-diameter saplings appear to be just utilization of whatever is there. However, as rubbed tree diameter increased, species distribution decreased; i.e. the larger the rubbed tree, the fewer species used. For the largest category of rubbed tree size, I only found five species used. Those five species, in order of preference, were: eastern red cedar, loblolly pine, tulip poplar, beech, and maple. Interestingly, we have quite a few native virginia pine in the area, but bucks rarely use these for rubbing, for whatever reason. But they tear up planted loblolly pine.

I think it was Nordberg that I saw mention this years ago. Bucks chose trees with enough give that they can lean in on them and get that psyche boost that they are "winning." The bigger, the heavier, the buck the more tree he needs. It also intimidates other bucks.

It is interesting that you mention a maple preference. Maple dominates here but I rarely see it rubbed or beech or aspen for that matter. I have seen 6-8 rubs on planted red pine and they like spruce here, too.

sticknstring
07-03-2012, 11:35 AM
I think it would work great on small and big plots alike. I like your idea of switching the trees out as well. Maybe bury a 4" pvp pipe or something and then just drop a new one in each season.

shedder
07-03-2012, 11:46 AM
I don't think it is the only factor, but I think surface area for deposit of scent is a huge factor with these trees. It seems like a buck simply cannot walk by an exposed basswood trunk in the right spot--i.e. a high usage doe area.

Same thing for branches, any basswood overhanging within reach is going to get hit. If you inspect closely you will see when it is chewed on there are hundreds of fibers exposed. I would guess the surface area for scent deposit is hundreds of times higher than it is on most other species. It is amazing how fact surface area to volume ratios go up with fibrous materials.


This ties in with my earlier comment that bucks would much prefer other materials than natural ones if they held and displayed what they were communicating better.

Besides a possible waxy, fibrous rub they might like a material that shines in the UV range to be more visible at night. One that oxidizes in a day would be good, too, since it would tell a buck when the rub had a fresh hit. Also, a uv shine would be less likely to seen by other hunters if that is a worry in your area.

shedder
07-03-2012, 11:47 AM
I think it would work great on small and big plots alike. I like your idea of switching the trees out as well. Maybe bury a 4" pvp pipe or something and then just drop a new one in each season.

Excellent idea!

bigeight
07-03-2012, 12:17 PM
Big8,

Sounds like you've been holding out on us...but that's cool! I think what you've done is an awesome idea, and it's working. Best thing about that is you can take the tree down easily and put another one up between plot maintenance.

Might not work as well for smaller plots (1/2 acre and less) but on big plots...

Keep us posted on how it goes.

I've posted these pics before on another thread :)

I would stick with putting them directly into the soil so they give natural resistance rather than "wobble" in PVC. I would however put 2x4 legs on it so it holds up better. We got 1 knocked right over last year, and another laid down because when it rained the soil was too soft and the buck pushed it over at 45 . The legs should stop this.

BSK_
07-03-2012, 12:28 PM
This ties in with my earlier comment that bucks would much prefer other materials than natural ones if they held and displayed what they were communicating better.


I would find it VERY hard to fathom that bucks would prefer "unnatural" things to rub on versus "natural."

shedder
07-03-2012, 12:46 PM
I would find it VERY hard to fathom that bucks would prefer "unnatural" things to rub on versus "natural."

Why not if it serves their needs better or creates an involuntary response.

With people, advertising and commerce exploit that 24/7 and we are supposed to be smarter than bucks.

bioactive
07-03-2012, 01:22 PM
Interesting theory bioactive. Much debate has existed over why bucks choose particular tree species for signpost rubs. Some believe they choose aeromatic trees (trees that produce a smell when the bark is broken, like cedar). The problem with this theory is that top-choice signposting species in some geographic locations are not aeromatic, such as basswood. Some argue that trees with soft bark are chosen, yet in some locations very hard-barked trees are preferred, such as beech and maple. But the "winnability" theory is interesting.

In my rub study, I found a definite species preference for large rubs (rubs on large-diameter trees). For small, finger-size tree rubs, the species distribution was similar to what is available in the area. In essence, rubs on small-diameter saplings appear to be just utilization of whatever is there. However, as rubbed tree diameter increased, species distribution decreased; i.e. the larger the rubbed tree, the fewer species used. For the largest category of rubbed tree size, I only found five species used. Those five species, in order of preference, were: eastern red cedar, loblolly pine, tulip poplar, beech, and maple. Interestingly, we have quite a few native virginia pine in the area, but bucks rarely use these for rubbing, for whatever reason. But they tear up planted loblolly pine.

Red cedar is preferred in my area as well. I would put it at number 2 after basswood. The main thing withit is they have to be able to get at the trunk. Many of them have lower limbs that prevent rubbing. I like to cut the bottom branches off to allow them to rub. If it is in or at the edge of food, or on a well traveled path, they will hit it virtually every time. Interestingly, red cedar has very flaky bark, which increases the surface area, and when rubbed, very small diameter strands are produced. Again, I think it optimizes surface area. And the buck, with his superb nose, readily realizes that he is leaving a lot more scent than he is on other species, and he does not have to do any surface area calculations to figure it out.

Same thing with red cedar leaves. If I leave a branch hanging at the right height in the right place, it is certain to be used as a licking branch. Again, I I think surface area is a possible factor. Deer in my area browse red cedar only as a last resort when the snow is deep. But they lick it aggressively.

Just think how much surface area per volume there is on this...
http://www.meridian.k12.il.us/middle%20school/student_work/Kathleen_native_trees/RedCedarLeaves.jpg

Compared to this...
http://www.itsnature.org/Plant_Life/images/article-pics/maple-leaves.jpg

I do think there is an overlap to species they like. For example, apple and white oak both get used for licking branches a lot in my area. And an oak or apple seedling has almost no chance of surviving without protection. So I believe there are multiple factors that drive selection of a species, but I think surface area is the main driver (after location).

BSK_
07-03-2012, 02:06 PM
Why not if it serves their needs better or creates an involuntary response.


Because 10,000 years of evolution generally isn't overcome because someone invents a new gadget! ;)

BSK_
07-03-2012, 02:13 PM
A classic big signpost rub on a cedar. The rub is so high on the tree because that is the uphill side of the tree (terrain is a lot steeper than it looks in the picture). That cedar tree is almost as big as a telephone pole.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee175/BSK_04/BigRub.jpg


The buck couldn't get this beech tree between his browtines, hence all he was able to create was two parallel gouges with the tips of his browtines:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee175/BSK_04/bigrub2.jpg

bioactive
07-03-2012, 02:35 PM
Because 10,000 years of evolution generally isn't overcome because someone invents a new gadget! ;)

Don't know about that.

Regarding human evolution, we used to stare at campfires now we stare at television sets.:D

Tree Spud
07-03-2012, 02:51 PM
Don't know about that.

Regarding human evolution, we used to stare at campfires now we stare at television sets.:D

Staring at a television cannot replace staring at a campfire ...

Tap
07-03-2012, 04:01 PM
I filmed some interesting rubbing behavior in Iowa last season. The area has thousands of cedar trees and it seems like more were rubbed than those that were not. There were literally hundreds upon hundreds of rubs along rub lines that stretched for extremely long distances. Some trees were nearly a foot in diameter. HUGE for rubs! Most hunters would say that rubs like that had to be made by a mature buck, and maybe they were initially made by a mature buck, but I filmed 2 of the smallest racked yearling bucks that I've ever seen anywhere rubbing THEN EATING the shreds.

Brian, I've always thought rubbing was strictly a scent marking behavior. Is there a food or taste factor involved? Is the taste of cedar a "treat" to them? I was surprised to see bucks with 6" spreads rubbing 12" trees, but I was really surprised to see them eating the bark, in november... these were not "starving" deer.

And as far as using cut trees placed in the ground for sign post rubs, Why wouldn't it work? I know for a fact that the same thing can be done with overhanging branches. My buddy uses introduced branch cuttings for licking branches over mock scrapes. Bucks use them. They sometimes get tangled in the antlers and are found many yards away.
Neil and Craig Dougherty use them all of the time. I saw one of their set-ups where, in order to stop a buck for a shot, they suspended a cut branch for linking over the exact spot for a shot in the shooting lane. There was not a tree to attach the branch to, so they stretched a wire between two trees that intersected the spot where they wanted to hang the licking branch. They claimed that no buck could walk past there without stopping to mark the branch. Then "ZIP"! Right through the lungs!

shedder
07-03-2012, 04:28 PM
Because 10,000 years of evolution generally isn't overcome because someone invents a new gadget! ;)

My point was that the "gadget" was not overcoming 10,000 years of evolution but assisting it.

BSK_
07-03-2012, 05:16 PM
I filmed some interesting rubbing behavior in Iowa last season. The area has thousands of cedar trees and it seems like more were rubbed than those that were not. There were literally hundreds upon hundreds of rubs along rub lines that stretched for extremely long distances. Some trees were nearly a foot in diameter. HUGE for rubs! Most hunters would say that rubs like that had to be made by a mature buck, and maybe they were initially made by a mature buck, but I filmed 2 of the smallest racked yearling bucks that I've ever seen anywhere rubbing THEN EATING the shreds.

Just remember that like scraping, rubbing--especially signpost rubbing--is a communal activity. Its purpose is to have other deer, especially other bucks, interact with the scent left behind. Once initiated, every buck in the area will interact with a signpost rub, even button bucks (and I've seen pictures of does sniffing and licking signpost rubs).


Brian, I've always thought rubbing was strictly a scent marking behavior. Is there a food or taste factor involved? Is the taste of cedar a "treat" to them? I was surprised to see bucks with 6" spreads rubbing 12" trees, but I was really surprised to see them eating the bark, in november... these were not "starving" deer.

Yes, there is a taste component to a full rubbing sequence. If you've ever seen video of mature or older buck initiating or reworking a singpost rub, they will rub for awhile, and then stop and sniff and lick the rub. Then they will rub some more and again sniff and lick the rub. They appear to be "testing" the scent left on the rub. In addition, ever buck that reworks the rub may also sniff and lick the rub. Remember that the primary sex scent receptor is the diamond shaped spot that is in the roof of a deer's mouth, instead of in their nose.


And as far as using cut trees placed in the ground for sign post rubs, Why wouldn't it work?

Simply because, in all my years of studying and measuring rubs, I've rarely (VERY rarely) seen a buck rub a dead tree. For whatever reason, the tree needs to be alive (although a very freshly cut tree might work just fine).