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booner sooner
11-02-2011, 12:24 PM
I know i know... It's not rye GRAIN, but it's all I could get ahold of on such short notice (rain coming ).. I planted oats/wheat/pea mix back in mid September and I've noticed some thin spots (thanks to the deer) and I also have several areas that were sprayed back then and I didn't get seeded good, so I picked up 2 bags of this Marshall ryegrass from my feed store and broadcast it today, we have 4 good rain chances over the next week so I wanted to fill in my plots. I also have a strip that is now just this Marshall stuff without anything else so I can compare the deer usage. It says this stuff is an annual so it shouldn't come back and give me fits next year, just curious to hear if anyone else has heard of or used this Marshall stuff ?

lakngulf
11-02-2011, 12:36 PM
It is what I ask for each year. My dad and my brother were in the beef cattle business. Each year they would drill acres and acres of rye grass, and in some fields they would disc and then drill. They always used marshall rye, if available.

Each year for food plots I disc, broadcast a mix, disc lightly, and then broadcast the marshall rye on top, and run over it with 4 wheeler. I have had good results from it.

blumsden
11-02-2011, 12:47 PM
Anything would be better than rye grass. Wheat,rye,turnips,clover,oats, or leave the bare spots bare. It's really hard to get rid of ryegrass, ask LLC what kind of problem he's having with it. Your plot, do what you want. I would much rather have a thin plot with no weeds or grasses, than a lush plot full of either.

lakngulf
11-02-2011, 12:53 PM
Anything would be better than rye grass. Wheat,rye,turnips,clover,oats, or leave the bare spots bare. It's really hard to get rid of ryegrass, ask LLC what kind of problem he's having with it. Your plot, do what you want. I would much rather have a thin plot with no weeds or grasses, than a lush plot full of either.

There will not be a problem with Marshall rye. It will come back up next year only if it goes to seed, and I consider that a good thing. I get the perennial and annual terminology mixed up, but it is a replant each year type.

THE, LLC
11-02-2011, 01:01 PM
Good for cows, bad for deer managers.

booner sooner
11-02-2011, 01:03 PM
honestly I don't think it will ever get mature enough to go to seed because of the deer density I have, and I will spray and mow the entire plot come Spring next year anyway. Would putting down some fertilzer now before the rains give my wheat and oats a boost also ?

lakngulf
11-02-2011, 01:44 PM
Good for cows, bad for deer managers.

So, am I in the middle of the "Winter Rye v. Winter Wheat" debate? Here's what I do, the full story.

I always debate buying the coops ready mix, or getting my own wheat and oats. I ALWAYS buy the Marshall Rye to broadcast on top after all else is planted. That pretty much assures a good cover.

Most years (this one included) I get the mix, a few bags of "feed wheat" (that's right, feed wheat), and the marshall rye. Things are looking good so far, and I will be sitting in the woods just off one of the fields in about two hours.

booner sooner
11-02-2011, 02:13 PM
I guess time will tell.. The guy at the tack store says he plants it for cattle and deer both, says he has deer in it every night. It's on the ground now with 105lbs of fertilizer and rain about an hour away so there's no turning back !

lakngulf
11-02-2011, 02:42 PM
I guess time will tell.. The guy at the tack store says he plants it for cattle and deer both, says he has deer in it every night. It's on the ground now with 105lbs of fertilizer and rain about an hour away so there's no turning back !

I think it will server you well. Very tolerant to grow in colder temps. Good luck with it.

blumsden
11-02-2011, 02:56 PM
So, am I in the middle of the "Winter Rye v. Winter Wheat" debate? Here's what I do, the full story.

I always debate buying the coops ready mix, or getting my own wheat and oats. I ALWAYS buy the Marshall Rye to broadcast on top after all else is planted. That pretty much assures a good cover.

Most years (this one included) I get the mix, a few bags of "feed wheat" (that's right, feed wheat), and the marshall rye. Things are looking good so far, and I will be sitting in the woods just off one of the fields in about two hours.

You do realize that boonersooner is talking about ryegrass, not rye grain, right?

Muddy Creek Farms
11-02-2011, 03:15 PM
All my FIL does is rowcrop, and he about had a come apart when when I mentioned Marshall Ryegrass. If you have any kind of planting ideas, don't do it. Go with wheat, rye GRAIN, oats or something like that instead.

THE, LLC
11-02-2011, 03:58 PM
Of the annual ryegrasses, Marshall is probably the best, but it is still bad. I guarantee in Oklahoma you will have a hard time keeping annual ryegrass from going to seed. It is pretty when it's green and everything else is dead, though.

booner sooner
11-02-2011, 04:13 PM
Well $hit !!! So what should I look for come Spring ? We start warming up in mid April, so I should be able to watch the plot and hit it with some gly in April, then again in mid May ? These 2 plots grow up with Ragweed every summer when I don't keep them sprayed, surely this ryegrass can't be any harder to kill than ragweed !!

Now what about the deer usage with this Marshall stuff ? I've heard a lot of you talking about what it's gonna do in the future, but all I'm interested in now is will it be attractive to deer, in a drought stricken area with very limited native browse due to the drought... I can deal with killing the stuff come Spring, I'm not worried about that.

THE, LLC
11-02-2011, 05:22 PM
Yes, they will eat it while it is tender and growing. Not heavily---unless that's all there is. If so, they will hammer it. Once it starts growing taller in the spring, nuke it. It is every bit as difficult as ragweed (however ragweed is a preferred deer and quail plant).

CaveCreek
11-02-2011, 09:28 PM
honestly I don't think it will ever get mature enough to go to seed because of the deer density I have, and I will spray and mow the entire plot come Spring next year anyway. Would putting down some fertilzer now before the rains give my wheat and oats a boost also ?

Booner:

All annual ryegrasses have the ability to reseed. Some less than others, but it's still enough to be a problem. That includes Marshall Ryegrass. As LLC mentions, it is one of the better ryegrasses, but you are not raising livestock, so that should not make much of any beans to you. ;)

It's a forage that whitetail will utilize, when very young and succulent, and when they have no other choices... but it also competes with your other plants. So now that you have asked if fertilizing would help your winter grains, I can tell you that your ryegrass will hurt your wintergrains, through competition.

Anyhow, there's no such thing as animals utilizing ryegrass to the point that it won't be able to reseed. IT WILL RESEED. You can't keep the plant low enough, and even if you could, here's the problem... which I've discussed with several others, your deer may hit it now, but in Spring, they won't have anything to do with it. And that is when it will go to seed. When it becomes rank, and starts putting on a seed head.

Anyhow, if this is a plot that you plow, I would plow the ryegrass out in Spring, and save the Roundup for secondary weed control. Herbecide's best use is on perennial species, not annuals. Most annuals can be controlled with simple tillage.

lakngulf
11-02-2011, 09:41 PM
Undoubtedly we are talking about two different Marshall Rye's. What I plant
(1) does not choke out wheat, oats, or clover. I bow hunted over a field this afternoon and took a picture with my phone. If I can figure out how to download I will post. I walked thru part of the field to my climber. Saw lots of clover underneath the wheat and oats and rye that were very healthy. Down this way the plots are not being hit very hard because acorn crop is plentiful

(2) Is not a problem next spring/summer. It burns out when the temps rise. Some farmers cut it for hay before the burn out. The plot I took a picture of today had the same items in it last year, so I am assuming the Marshall did not take over and cause a problem

(3) Grass that is in a good pH soil, and fertlized, will be visited by our deer sometime during the winter, guaranteed.

Now I am assuming the Marshall has a rye grain and a rye grass, right?

THE, LLC
11-02-2011, 10:04 PM
No. Marshall is a variety of ryeGRASS. No such thing as Marshall Rye Grain.

booner sooner
11-02-2011, 10:49 PM
I would like to see your plot pics ! I think we understand that Marshall is a grass, and they do not make a Marshall RyeGrain, so if he's using Marshall then it is probably the same as what I just put down. Like I mentioned before, Spring seeding is not my concern, I disc these plots as soon as the temps warm enough to thaw the ground, usually in mid April and I will spray emerging weeds through Spring until I plant a summer plot..
So here's where I'm at with the plots and the Marshall now.. Today I broadcast about 25lbs of it in each of my plots (.75ac each ) and I added 105lbs of 10-10-10 and it is raining on them right now... There is nothing green growing anywhere on my property and our severd drought really hurt the native browse so I am looking to keep as much green in the ground as possible. Last year I wasted one of these plots in a brassica mix and I never had a deer touch them, so with the way they have pounded the wheat mix this year, I figured the Marshall wouldn't hurt anything.. Guess I will have to wait and see what happens, but others have told me they planted the Marshall and deer utilized those plots very well..

dgallow
11-02-2011, 11:32 PM
Today I broadcast about 25lbs of it in each of my plots (.75ac each )

:D Either you will become a great ryegrass manager or learn a hard lesson come spring! :D Timed properly, gly will get the ryegrass and young ragweed...a double bagger for you my friend!

Maton rye is a recent southern rye GRAIN release which may get confused with Marshall ryeGRASS. Ironically, Gulf annual ryegrass and Elbon rye are the same price/bag at the local COOP this fall?

FWIW here are 'real' observations from cattlemen dealing with ryegrass in SEOK and SWAR each year:

- 15 lbA is the recommended ryegrass pasture seeding rate but 6 lbA ryegrass in a small grain mix is more manageable in spring
- stocking rates of 0.8 to 1.0 animal unit per acre in 'graze out' are needed to minimize reseeding
- ryegrass can be baled for hay to minimize reseeding
- too much ryegrass can outcompete other forages including other ryegrass seedlings
- ryegrass will grow where you want it and where you do no want it
- ryegrass is easy to grow....low fall tonnage....high spring tonnage

Not a big fan of ryegrass here but like any other tool it has a place in the box...cows and deer are glad to have some ryegrass this fall! :)

BTW...near where the 200+" OK monster was poached last year....a 204" brute was harvested with x-box on large acreage under good management! ;)

lakngulf
11-03-2011, 08:30 AM
Couple of pictures taken 11-02-11. Field was planted in late September and we got some decent rain showers shortly thereafter. I threw 13-13-13 out by hand. If you look closely you can see where I missed.

History of this field:
1. Last year was disced and planted in feed wheat, coop mix of WOR, covered lightly with disc, marshall rye broadcast on top, 4-wheeler packing
2. I let the crop grow to maturity and seed. When I bushhogged the dead foilage I had oats above the tractor, wheat about half that, and the rye under that. I was HOPING the matured seed would fall into the soil. OK with me for it to sprout again this year and grow
3. About August this year I hit it with spring tooth chisel plow. WOW that was a chore as the fescue and bermuda grass (some call it wire grass I think, or that may be something different altogether). In any even the bermuda grass has long runners above ground and roots about the same. I would let it clog in the chisel plow, raise 3 pt and drop in field at same position each round, then I used Front End Loader and pushed it to the side.
4. After chisel plow I disc about twice and had a fairly smooth seed bed.
5. Broadcast coop mix of Wheat, Oats and Rye
6. Broadcast feed wheat
7. Disced lightly
8. Broadcast marshall rye
9. Ran over some areas with 4 wheeler.

I do not understand the problem that the marshall rye is causing for me. The above variety of seed has served us well for many years.

booner sooner, pm me with your email address and I will send full scale pictures so you can zoom in.

blumsden
11-03-2011, 08:58 AM
Couple of pictures taken 11-02-11. Field was planted in late September and we got some decent rain showers shortly thereafter. I threw 13-13-13 out by hand. If you look closely you can see where I missed.

History of this field:
1. Last year was disced and planted in feed wheat, coop mix of WOR, covered lightly with disc, marshall rye broadcast on top, 4-wheeler packing
2. I let the crop grow to maturity and seed. When I bushhogged the dead foilage I had oats above the tractor, wheat about half that, and the rye under that. I was HOPING the matured seed would fall into the soil. OK with me for it to sprout again this year and grow
3. About August this year I hit it with spring tooth chisel plow. WOW that was a chore as the fescue and bermuda grass (some call it wire grass I think, or that may be something different altogether). In any even the bermuda grass has long runners above ground and roots about the same. I would let it clog in the chisel plow, raise 3 pt and drop in field at same position each round, then I used Front End Loader and pushed it to the side.
4. After chisel plow I disc about twice and had a fairly smooth seed bed.
5. Broadcast coop mix of Wheat, Oats and Rye
6. Broadcast feed wheat
7. Disced lightly
8. Broadcast marshall rye
9. Ran over some areas with 4 wheeler.

I do not understand the problem that the marshall rye is causing for me. The above variety of seed has served us well for many years.

booner sooner, pm me with your email address and I will send full scale pictures so you can zoom in.

I think by the number of reply's that are against planting ryegrass, that should make you second guess your decision. With that being said, it's your plot, plant what you want. What i think most are trying to tell you, is that ryegrass is not a preferred deer food. Why take up root space from a prefered food and give it to a non-preferred food. It's been my experience and that of most, that deer only eat ryegrass when nothing else is available. It has very little, if any nutritional value to deer. If it were a weed, ask yourself would you want it in your plot? People go to great pains to keep grasses and weeds at bay in their plot and sometimes some of the weeds are a preferred food source. Rye grass can be hard to eradicate. If your not having a problem, and you like planting it, by all means have at it.

booner sooner
11-03-2011, 09:27 AM
Well, I'm hating life right now very much !! I knew from this forum that rye grass was not to go in food plots, then I get to my tack store wanting more ww and he is out. I tell him I'm wanting to fill in some thin spots in my fall plots and he says this Marshall stuff is what I need. I explained the rye vs grass scenario and he says " this is an annual rye, it will not come back every year and I have deer out on mine every evening", he also says he's sold it to several others this year for food plots ! I guess maybe we can send him our bill next spring for all the gly we have to buy !!! I wish I would've waited a day and thoght it over more, but it was spare of the moment decision and looks like I made a bad one.. So now... Will the deer turn away from my plots once the Marshall starts growing ? They have been hammering the ww/oats to the point they have quit coming to them because they are almost bare dirt again, this is why I wanted to reseed, there were several places the ww never got going because the rain had washed out some areas, this is also why I was wanting to fill in the bare spots before this rain last night, which by the way wasn't more than a drizzle, but we have 2 days of rain coming !! Since the rain didn't soak in the Marshall last night, I have 2 days before the rain gets it going for sure, with the seed already on the ground, is there anything I can do now to prevent it's germination ?@!|?

lakngulf
11-03-2011, 09:35 AM
My first years of hunting were in the early 90's when my son had turned 10 and wanted to go to the farm every weekend. My dad and brother had cleared some swamp land and had overseeded with marshall rye. I guess those 1990's deer did not understand good eating, because we could sit anywhere we wanted and see tons of deer. They poured out of that swamp land to eat the rye. Of course, my dad and brother gave it all the lime and fertlizer that it needed so I am sure it was sweet.

I guess I learned wrong, because I have been trying to repeat those big green fields ever since, with some pretty good luck.

Thanks for the advice. I will continue the mix that I have gone with for years.

booner sooner
11-03-2011, 09:48 AM
Lakngulf - Hey buddy, if it has been working for you, keep it going !! You are not the first person to tell me they have deer eat this stuff, so I tried it and hopefully I have the same success you have ! Only time will tell now, I will keep a close watch on it and keep you posted on my results ! Thanks for your pics and your input, from someone that is actually growing and using this stuff !

booner sooner
11-03-2011, 09:51 AM
I have mixed feelings about it right now.. A lot of folks say "don't ever plant rye GRASS", then I have others tell me they plant it and the deer hammer it ! But I also had people tell me last year how deer will hammer a brassica plot with turnips in it, so I planted a full .75 acres of the stuff, came up and looked absolutely awesome, but my deer never touched it and the turnips sat there and rotted until I disced them under in April...
The pics of your plot look really good, how often are you seeing the deer utilize it ?

lakngulf
11-03-2011, 10:23 AM
The pics of your plot look really good, how often are you seeing the deer utilize it ?

Don't have a camera on this plot, so no exact evidence other than lots of tracks and area grazed around the edges. The plot in the attached picture has the same mixture. Camera shots and signs of grazing show lots of use.

I changed the size to keep it on the screen.

Muddy Creek Farms
11-03-2011, 10:25 AM
Deer will eat it. Especially down in central Alabama where you are. I worked on a farm when I was in shool down there, and every fall they had us planting crimson clover and marshall rye. The pretty camo bag. Same thing you are planting.
Now, yes, the deer would eat it. But, as far as good quality forage goes, you're not exactly in a heaven there at Lake Martin. There's some forage around yes, but nothing like thousands of acres of beans and stuff like that. Those deer living on the pine knolls will eat just about anything tender and green you throw at them during the winter. Red clay and Pine trees. That's about all that's there.
Now, as far as what it will do to the soil and that stuff, these guys know so much about it, it's not even funny. Not me. I just listen when it comes to that. You're right, it'll attract deer, but if long term is what you're looking for it might be worth listening to some of these guys. They're definitely a wealth of information! I have some growing in my yard right now that I can't get rid of. I hate it.

Good luck!!

THE, LLC
11-03-2011, 10:35 AM
Lakngulf,
One thing I see in your pictures is some stuff, I'm assuming ryegrass, that has gotten mighty long for this time of year and beginning to fall over and mat up suggesting very little deer usage of that particular forage.

lakngulf
11-03-2011, 10:40 AM
Lakngulf,
One thing I see in your pictures is some stuff, I'm assuming ryegrass, that has gotten mighty long for this time of year and beginning to fall over and mat up suggesting very little deer usage of that particular forage.

It is the oats and wheat that have matted over a bit. Your can tell by the width. The deer at this particular location have lots of acorns still to munch on so not hitting the plot as heavy as others. They will get to it eventually

lakngulf
11-03-2011, 10:47 AM
you're not exactly in a heaven there at Lake Martin.

Not in heaven for the deer maybe, but for me, it's as close as I can get.

As for soil conditions, pines, clay, etc....the food plots are in south Bibb County right on the Chilton County line. I haul topsoil from there to my home on Lake Martin to grow my tomatoes. The soil is great but there are no large soy bean or corn fields near my plots, but I plan to change that this year.\

Here's a picture of "not exactly in a heaven there at Lake Martin"

booner sooner
11-03-2011, 10:50 AM
I did read on the net about Marshall rye having like 16-18% protein content so it seems like it would be good for the deer, and it's green, so what exactly turns deer off of it when there's no other green fields around ?

booner sooner
11-03-2011, 10:55 AM
I am seeing deer here come out on golf courses and grazing, and mowed hay meadows grazing for what little green stuff there is left, so is Marshall something that may be attractive to them this year because of the drought and lack of greens this year ? I definately will kill this stuff in Spring and won't be using it again, now just afraid it will turn them away from my plots that had ww/oats already if this takes them over in the next few weeks... That's my main concern right now, is this deer season !

TrademarkTexan
11-03-2011, 11:07 AM
I think you'll be fine for deer season. What everyone has described is when it starts growing in late winter/early spring it gets very rank and deer will quit eating it. What is it that causes them to quit eating it exactly? I don't know, maybe high lignin content, maybe it loses some taste or nutrition?

Either way, I know that it can go to seed in the blink of an eye. Just a couple warm days will see seed heads forming, and at that point even spraying with Gly will not stop the seeds from maturing. If you see seed heads forming, it needs to be plowed under that day. At that stage, it's also very hard to kill with plowing, and may take multiple passes a day or two apart to break up the root balls and dessicate the roots enough to kill it.

Muddy Creek Farms
11-03-2011, 11:10 AM
Not in heaven for the deer maybe, but for me, it's as close as I can get.

As for soil conditions, pines, clay, etc....the food plots are in south Bibb County right on the Chilton County line. I haul topsoil from there to my home on Lake Martin to grow my tomatoes. The soil is great but there are no large soy bean or corn fields near my plots, but I plan to change that this year.\

Here's a picture of "not exactly in a heaven there at Lake Martin"

If you're gonna quote my sentence, take the entire thing...AS FAR AS GOOD QUALITY FORAGE GOES...

I didn't mean where you freakin live, I'm talking about soil and forages. Acidic Clay soil. Takes a lot of work and a lot of fertilizer.

CaveCreek
11-03-2011, 11:43 AM
Booner:

You will be fine, just make sure you plow it out soon enough.

Even winter grains begin to get ignored come spring... hence another reason not to suspect that your deer would keep ryegrass from going to seed.

Here's one of the key's... deer will utilize nearly 100% of all vegetation, to some extent. #1 reason deer eat things they don't like: because they don't know any better, until they have tasted it... #2: no other options.

Most any plant that is putting on "New" "Succulent" growth, will get utilized for a little while. Heck, whitetail eat cactus in Texas... but I wouldn't suggest to any of ya'll that you try planting some. ;)

Tons of forages, plants, trees, etc... have lots of Protein in them, as they mature, that protein content decreases.

But protein isn't the only factor, and that is one reason why you guys will see a lot of high protein plants not get utilized.

Distability of the plant is very important, and one of the reason why you will actually see a lot of low protein food sources even utilized by wildlife.

In a nutshell: Protein does not = Digestible Matter.

And as for those with ryegrass success... who here has a pure stand of ryegrass, with no clover or winter grains mixed in?

Mixed stands can create "mixed up" evaluations of forages.

Deer will graze ryegrass, But unless you are trying to grow it in your lawn, or for your livestock, SIMULTANEOUSLY, then it really is just not a "good" choice for Wildlife foodplots.

lakngulf
11-03-2011, 01:52 PM
If you're gonna quote my sentence, take the entire thing...AS FAR AS GOOD QUALITY FORAGE GOES...

I did not take offense to your quote. Reading my reply you can tell that I agree....I haul dirt from the farmland to my house because the soil around my house is no good. I understand your quote and I agree.

Muddy Creek Farms
11-03-2011, 02:23 PM
I did not take offense to your quote. Reading my reply you can tell that I agree....I haul dirt from the farmland to my house because the soil around my house is no good. I understand your quote and I agree.

Ok good. Just makin sure. People take offense quick sometimes! I've spent many years in that red clay around there. Know it all too well!

THE, LLC
11-03-2011, 02:33 PM
Lake Martin. Alabama Power. Friend from Wetompka used to work for them and spend some time up at the dam.

lakngulf
11-03-2011, 02:39 PM
Lake Martin. Alabama Power. Friend from Wetompka used to work for them and spend some time up at the dam.

My hunting land is about 1.5 hours away. Ever since I moved to the lake full time I have had a hard time wanting to leave to go hunting. Like, I have already talked myself out of going on Saturday because I want to hang around home and get some things done. Also, I want to be near the TV about 7pm central time.

dgallow
11-03-2011, 03:58 PM
I did read on the net about Marshall rye having like 16-18% protein content so it seems like it would be good for the deer, and it's green, so what exactly turns deer off of it when there's no other green fields around ?

From my experiences in OK in new and old plot areas and in pasture with ryegrass, other cool season annual grasses, and small grains, initial deer use will be high when plants reach the first 2-4" of lush growth, use will wain or vary through fall, and use will increase in winter. Declines of use in fall can result from: a shift to other preferred food sources such as acorns/persimmons, a weather front necessatating increased browse intake, too much hunting pressure, or constant badgering by rutting bucks which moves does into thick cover. On the plant side it is usually rain related, enough moisture for germination and initial lush growth, then a dry spell where remaining plant material is less palatable, then more rain which encourages new lush growth and grazing. Spatial use (this area or that area) seems most related to soil fertility and proximity to cover.

Do understand that across farms these factors will differ as will the deer response....even on the same farm from year to year...or on one side of the farm vs the other. What is important is that you take note (mental or written) and use that information to aid in harvest...aka predicting where deer will be in advance of use on YOUR farm and setting stands in anticipation of any shifts in diet preference!

Deer will have 2-5 major feeding bouts each day for 360 d per years....it takes alot of time in the stand to even scratch the surface on ths puzzle and derive consistent patterns!

THE, LLC
11-03-2011, 04:22 PM
My hunting land is about 1.5 hours away. Ever since I moved to the lake full time I have had a hard time wanting to leave to go hunting. Like, I have already talked myself out of going on Saturday because I want to hang around home and get some things done. Also, I want to be near the TV about 7pm central time.

It's a beautiful lake and I hear the spotted bass fishing is pretty good. Never been.

I want to make clear in this discussion that I ain't cuttin' anybody for planting ryegrass or insinuating I think they are stupid. It's just I've been there, done that and hope others won't. Now granted, too, most of my bad experiences have been with Gulf Annual Ryegrass. I will also state that High Sugar Ryegrass (a whole different animal) from Sucraseed is one of my favorite forages and deer LOVE it.