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bigeight
08-30-2011, 01:32 PM
I see a lot of people with QDMA decals in there windows, and talk with a lot of people that throw around the "QDMA" that don't truly practice.
In talking with those people, or that are even my hunting buddies I would guess about 10%the have actually talked without their neighbors about forming a Coop.
Seems the topics on the forum have changed over the course of the past year, to what can I do to "screw" my neighbor from getting deer.

Just wondering if you are seeing the same trend, or how many of you have actually talked with hour neighbord about doing a coop.

What was the response?

Tree Spud
08-30-2011, 01:53 PM
It is always a touchy subject when discussing deer hunting restrictions with neighbors. Some of mine practice QDM in principle, some won't shoot a doe to save their life. Some follow the if it is brown, it is down approach.

Once opening day arrives and the shooting begins, good intentions seem to fall by the wayside ... :(

Beechnut
08-30-2011, 02:00 PM
Fortunately, or unfortunately, we don't have a lot of hunters in my area. The largest club next to us does mostly dog hunting and they've adopted the "if it's brown, it's down" mentality. Most of the club members are from Florida and I suspect don't hunt much. And, we typically don't hear much shooting from over there either.

One good thing about this neighbor is he doesn't run their dogs next to our property. He leases 80 acres right next to us and he doesn't hunt 40 of it. He gave us permission to hunt the 40 closest to us so that was pretty cool.

Another owner adjacent to us hunts by himself and he's a nice guy. We both agree that shooting young bucks is no-no but he doesn't have as high a doe harvest goal as we do. Kind of gives us card blanche to take as many does as possible. Our deer population is approximately 45 deer per sq mile so it's pretty high.

We're always careful about explaining our harvest philosophy because we know there's still many hunters that don't adopt the QDMA philosophy. We understand, it's their land and they have to right to hunt/manage it how they see fit as long as it's legal.

bigeight
08-30-2011, 02:33 PM
I know I get worse and worse about it every year. When I first got into QDM, I was all about talking to the neighbors and trying to get them on board, or just stopping by to talk to them after he season ans see how they did etc.

Now we have picked up a couple more properties and haven't even bothered to talk to the neighbors even though I spend hundreds of hours on the farms trying to draw deer from their land.

I definitely have to re-group and take more time to talk with the neighbors. I am sure by expanding the Qdm area I would have more success than the back breaking work I am doing.:o

QDMAMAN
08-30-2011, 02:53 PM
bigeight,
I have a little bit of experience in starting co ops (here in Michigan) and can assure you that there are several of your neighbors that WANT to be part of a QDM type management plan, and are probably practicing some sort of restraint. Most people are negative by nature and find it easier to believe that their neighbors think less of deer than they do. I can guarentee you that it won't change until someone, like yourself, steps up to the plate and makes it happen.
I understand that as your acreage/opportunities expand, that it is easier and easier to remain an island but if you believe in QDM and the how it effects the deer herd in a positive manner, then it makes it easier to step out and make it happen.
Right now is THE BEST TIME to start/promote QDM neighborhood co ops. Polished antlers, cooler nights, and shorter days have all of us excited about the possiblities for the coming season. What better time to take advantage of your neighbors enthusiasm than now?
It's also a good time to get out in front of the co op movement. Starting in Sept. at the Woods-N-Water show in Imlay City the state chapter QDMA will be featured speakers on the topic and promotion of QDM neighborhood co ops. We will also be featured at the Grand Rapids show, Lansing, and Novi. Hundreds of hunters are going to be exposed to what co ops are, and more importantly, what they aren't, by having an established co op in place you will make it easy to expand your membership as folks in your area suddenly become aware that they're already in, or close to, an existing co op.
When it comes to co ops my advise is to encoourage, encourage, encourage! Deer management co ops are more about people management than they are about deer management.
If you want further assistance or info concerning co ops, I'm always happy to lend a hand, and I'm just a 9 iron away from you. Email me at QDMAMAN@yahoo.com

Big T

SJWhitetail
08-30-2011, 02:55 PM
Have hunted same property for 12 years, talked actively (about management) with neighbors for 3 years. I see a lot of what others see, lots of talk and ideas w/o action. The ones that I let hunt will talk big during season about all the things we should do. Then when season is over nothing until about now a month before opener. Neighbors due about the same, think they can't make a difference. Plus, when they see big bucks during hunting season that probably spent all summer on me they don't feel the need to make improvements. So this makes me revert back to how am I going to bedder myself and keep them on my property year round. I give away old magazines constantly, loan out books that sometimes come back (usually not):mad: and promote the best I know how??? Have been thinking of buying a membership or two for a couple neighbors this year. Hopefully that will help.

QDMAMAN
08-30-2011, 03:08 PM
It is always a touchy subject when discussing deer hunting restrictions with neighbors. Some of mine practice QDM in principle, some won't shoot a doe to save their life. Some follow the if it is brown, it is down approach.

Once opening day arrives and the shooting begins, good intentions seem to fall by the wayside ... :(

Tree Spud,
It's nieve to believe that every single neighbor will get on board with a QDM co op, trust me, they won't. Not to dispare though, because every acre that is participating is one more acre that young bucks can find refuge. While it MIGHT take a little longer to hit critical mass, you can make a differnce.
Something strange happens when we sit down acroos the table from our neighbors and pledge that we will make our best effort to participate. It becomes much more difficult for us to go against our word when the moment of truth presents itself in the woods.
Establishing a co op and communicating with neighbors helps to identifty those that will shoot does and those that won't, or don't take enough. This can let the "old guard" off the hook when it comes to taking antlerless and those that are willing can take up the slack.
If your neighbors don't know you on a personal level then it's real easy for them to disregard your concerns for how the deer in your neighborhood are managed. You may not have anything other than deer hunting in common with them so why not foster that shared interest and befriend them?;) Some of my closest friends are neighbors I didn't know, other than to wave, prior to the formation of our co op 10 years ago.:)

Big T

QDMAMAN
08-30-2011, 03:15 PM
Have hunted same property for 12 years, talked actively (about management) with neighbors for 3 years. I see a lot of what others see, lots of talk and ideas w/o action. The ones that I let hunt will talk big during season about all the things we should do. Then when season is over nothing until about now a month before opener. Neighbors due about the same, think they can't make a difference. Plus, when they see big bucks during hunting season that probably spent all summer on me they don't feel the need to make improvements. So this makes me revert back to how am I going to bedder myself and keep them on my property year round. I give away old magazines constantly, loan out books that sometimes come back (usually not):mad: and promote the best I know how??? Have been thinking of buying a membership or two for a couple neighbors this year. Hopefully that will help.

Been there done that!
I spent 2 years talking to a neighbor here or a neighbor there. It wasn't until we all came together in one place that we realized that the interest was greater than any "one" of us.
FWIW, the first time I claim a buck that one of my neighbors shoots as "my buck" or one that "I grew", will be the day they stop listening.;)
When a buck, any buck, is killed in my neighborhood, I'm the first and most enthusiastic to congratulate the lucky hunter.

Big T

SJWhitetail
08-30-2011, 03:26 PM
Been there done that!
I spent 2 years talking to a neighbor here or a neighbor there. It wasn't until we all came together in one place that we realized that the interest was greater than any "one" of us.
FWIW, the first time I claim a buck that one of my neighbors shoots as "my buck" or one that "I grew", will be the day they stop listening.;)
When a buck, any buck, is killed in my neighborhood, I'm the first and most enthusiastic to congratulate the lucky hunter.

Big T

100% agree! Don't mean to sound like I was claiming. What I meant was that "if" I am making a difference with my actions and they see results w/o them physically doing anything besides walking out the door on opening day then some don't see any reason to make a difference on their side of the fence. Trust me, I am tickled to see anyone close to me shoot a large buck even if I watched it during the summer and am quick to congratulate them. Last year a boy shot a brute that I had been watching and hoping for. He was 2 farms over. My first thought was I wanted to meet him and give him cam photos I had collected.

crimson n' camo
08-30-2011, 03:41 PM
I got exited about a year ago after seeing a nearby landowner featured in QW and decided to get out and meet "the neighbors". It all started off well as the folks who were in QW were very friendly. I talked to a couple folks in the neighborhood and was really excited about seeing if anyone had tried or would be intersted in forming a QDM coop. The area I live is just begging for one.

Well, then came the depressing part. I decided to go and meet my immediate landowning neighbor. I could tell from the very start that he was way more concerned with the fact that I was hunting beside him than he was about hearing anything I had to say about QDM. You see I only have 25 acres and in my neck of the woods that's nothing. This guy has 700 acres (doesn't live on it) and the guy behind him has like 5,000 or more...... and the guy beside him has a 1,000 and so on and so forth. Well, I gave the guy a copy of QW and tried to explain to him that I am just a deer management nut and that I just wanted to be a part of it in my area. He took the magazine and sent me on my way.

A waited a few weeks a decided to go back with my wife and give it one more try to be neighborly with each other. This time the conversation took about 30 seconds. I knocked on the door. He answered and said he was "busy". I told him I was sorry for disturbing him and I would try to catch him at a better time. He said simply "O.K." and then shut his door. Now maybe the guy was busy but if you knock on my door and say that your my neighbor.....I am going to invite you in a show you some hospitality. That's just me though.

The funny thing is that the guy seemed so worried about me killing "his" deer and in actuality I didn't even shoot a single deer off my property last year......even though I should have taken at least a doe or two. I passed up numerous, numerous bucks. One being a 3 1/2 year old 10 point that will be should be a true stud for someone this year.

The whole incident got me so discouraged that I just stuck my head back down in the sand and just started back working on my own stuff.

QDMAMAN
08-30-2011, 04:14 PM
I got exited about a year ago after seeing a nearby landowner featured in QW and decided to get out and meet "the neighbors". It all started off well as the folks who were in QW were very friendly. I talked to a couple folks in the neighborhood and was really excited about seeing if anyone had tried or would be intersted in forming a QDM coop. The area I live is just begging for one.

Well, then came the depressing part. I decided to go and meet my immediate landowning neighbor. I could tell from the very start that he was way more concerned with the fact that I was hunting beside him than he was about hearing anything I had to say about QDM. You see I only have 25 acres and in my neck of the woods that's nothing. This guy has 700 acres (doesn't live on it) and the guy behind him has like 5,000 or more...... and the guy beside him has a 1,000 and so on and so forth. Well, I gave the guy a copy of QW and tried to explain to him that I am just a deer management nut and that I just wanted to be a part of it in my area. He took the magazine and sent me on my way.

A waited a few weeks a decided to go back with my wife and give it one more try to be neighborly with each other. This time the conversation took about 30 seconds. I knocked on the door. He answered and said he was "busy". I told him I was sorry for disturbing him and I would try to catch him at a better time. He said simply "O.K." and then shut his door. Now maybe the guy was busy but if you knock on my door and say that your my neighbor.....I am going to invite you in a show you some hospitality. That's just me though.

The funny thing is that the guy seemed so worried about me killing "his" deer and in actuality I didn't even shoot a single deer off my property last year......even though I should have taken at least a doe or two. I passed up numerous, numerous bucks. One being a 3 1/2 year old 10 point that will be should be a true stud for someone this year.

The whole incident got me so discouraged that I just stuck my head back down in the sand and just started back working on my own stuff.

Sorry for the bad experience, I've been there and done that as well. In fact the guy that is the biggest naysayer in the neighborhood is/was the biggest trespasser. To be fare he came by it honestly because he was raised that way. His Dad figured if there wasn't a fence, it was open to hunting, it took him a couple years and a couple of "conversations" before he got the message. :lol:
Makes no difference though, like I said before, it's nieve to believe everyone in the neighborhood will participate so it's important to concentrate on those that will and remain possitive.
There's no question that QDM works and those of us that impliment it and get results will be the ones that change the hearts and minds of those who haven't embraced it yet, purely by our example. When it becomes your neighbor's idea, he'll be on board and adopt the attitude that "he knew along it would work"...mine did.:D

Big T

dahusker
08-30-2011, 04:29 PM
I'm in my 6th year of management on my family ranch and I've definitely tried to spread the QDM philosophy. First year I was met with a LOT of funny looks and a few upset neighbors and former hunters of my family property. I took the stance to build an age structure and harvest quite a few does. For 3 years I took does and let every buck walk. After seeing that I wasn't raping the resource but trying to help everyone in the neighborhood I think I changed quite a few minds.

Then I started taking some really nice deer. All of my neighbors except one took the best deer they've ever taken on their property and I have to believe my efforts had a lot to do with that. I had a few guys wanting to plant food plots and most passing all young bucks. It was all going pretty well and according to plan more or less.

Then, I took 2 great bucks last year and my wife took another. A few neighbors did too. However, what I failed to realize was that human nature is to be lazy. Neither landowner that talked about planting food plots did. Instead they wanted ME to plant theirs for them. I offered, knowledge and assistance in pointing them in the right direction but I wasn't about to plant food plots for them so the collective herd I felt I'd built would move to their property w/o them lifting a finger.

The other and more disturbing piece to the "lazy human" issue was that my showing pictures and helping to preach the QDM word got the WRONG kind of attention. Instead of more and more landowners planting food plots, letting all young bucks walk and shooting enough does. I noted a LOT more of the road hunting "slob" approach. Now I was around much of the time and there's now law against driving down a public road or "looking at deer". BUT, when I have people who've never historically hunted in our area trying to sneak around or get on ground next to me or worse yet, threatening to run deer off our property with snow mobiles or by trespassing....I have come to realize that sometimes keeping to myself is the best approach.

I've bought half a dozen QDM subscriptions to different folks each year over the past 4 years. Some success has been attained locally but I've also noticed a growing "resentment" from some. The folks with no property lament that I will convince all the landowners to stop the way they hunt. Which is by pickup or deer drives. Because I don't let anyone have permission I'm "selfish" or worse.

So I've now changed my tune and totally stopped trying to convince adults who are set in their ways to hunt legally, ethically and with a conservation minded approach. I just tell them to please obey the law and we won't have any problems. I now am focusing all my efforts on the youth. The farmers kids or local youngsters that can be "taught" and sponge up ethical and managment practices. I buy youth licenses and mentor those youth. I try and take a generational approach (counter insurgency for you fellow military types). If the teenagers and pre-teens learn the right way, I hope in 10 years the "old guard" will have moved on or "see the light".

I figure if I do what I can for the habitat, animals and kids...those that do disparage me won't have much of a leg to stand on with the rational types. Keep trying but I sure understand that it can be discouraging. It could be much worse for me. I have never caught a trespasser or found a poached deer (confirmed anyway). I have lots of road warriors who like to drive by but that's legal. I did have a trail camera stolen and get called all kinds of names but in the grand scheme of things, that's not too bad considering what I read that some of you have to deal with. I'm VERY fortunate to control enough food and habitat that I can stand on my own for the most part. Not all are as lucky.

QDMAMAN
08-30-2011, 04:41 PM
I'm in my 6th year of management on my family ranch and I've definitely tried to spread the QDM philosophy. First year I was met with a LOT of funny looks and a few upset neighbors and former hunters of my family property. I took the stance to build an age structure and harvest quite a few does. For 3 years I took does and let every buck walk. After seeing that I wasn't raping the resource but trying to help everyone in the neighborhood I think I changed quite a few minds.

Then I started taking some really nice deer. All of my neighbors except one took the best deer they've ever taken on their property and I have to believe my efforts had a lot to do with that. I had a few guys wanting to plant food plots and most passing all young bucks. It was all going pretty well and according to plan more or less.

Then, I took 2 great bucks last year and my wife took another. A few neighbors did too. However, what I failed to realize was that human nature is to be lazy. Neither landowner that talked about planting food plots did. Instead they wanted ME to plant theirs for them. I offered, knowledge and assistance in pointing them in the right direction but I wasn't about to plant food plots for them so the collective herd I felt I'd built would move to their property w/o them lifting a finger.

The other and more disturbing piece to the "lazy human" issue was that my showing pictures and helping to preach the QDM word got the WRONG kind of attention. Instead of more and more landowners planting food plots, letting all young bucks walk and shooting enough does. I noted a LOT more of the road hunting "slob" approach. Now I was around much of the time and there's now law against driving down a public road or "looking at deer". BUT, when I have people who've never historically hunted in our area trying to sneak around or get on ground next to me or worse yet, threatening to run deer off our property with snow mobiles or by trespassing....I have come to realize that sometimes keeping to myself is the best approach.

I've bought half a dozen QDM subscriptions to different folks each year over the past 4 years. Some success has been attained locally but I've also noticed a growing "resentment" from some. The folks with no property lament that I will convince all the landowners to stop the way they hunt. Which is by pickup or deer drives. Because I don't let anyone have permission I'm "selfish" or worse.

So I've now changed my tune and totally stopped trying to convince adults who are set in their ways to hunt legally, ethically and with a conservation minded approach. I just tell them to please obey the law and we won't have any problems. I now am focusing all my efforts on the youth. The farmers kids or local youngsters that can be "taught" and sponge up ethical and managment practices. I buy youth licenses and mentor those youth. I try and take a generational approach (counter insurgency for you fellow military types). If the teenagers and pre-teens learn the right way, I hope in 10 years the "old guard" will have moved on or "see the light".

I figure if I do what I can for the habitat, animals and kids...those that do disparage me won't have much of a leg to stand on with the rational types. Keep trying but I sure understand that it can be discouraging. It could be much worse for me. I have never caught a trespasser or found a poached deer (confirmed anyway). I have lots of road warriors who like to drive by but that's legal. I did have a trail camera stolen and get called all kinds of names but in the grand scheme of things, that's not too bad considering what I read that some of you have to deal with. I'm VERY fortunate to control enough food and habitat that I can stand on my own for the most part. Not all are as lucky.

Love your signature line.

lone cedar farm
08-30-2011, 05:01 PM
Most around here will only practice QDM when the state makes them....and that wont happen. They want no part of it...think QDM is all about big antlers.

Tree Spud
08-30-2011, 05:21 PM
Tree Spud,
It's nieve to believe that every single neighbor will get on board with a QDM co op, trust me, they won't. Not to dispare though, because every acre that is participating is one more acre that young bucks can find refuge. While it MIGHT take a little longer to hit critical mass, you can make a differnce.
Something strange happens when we sit down acroos the table from our neighbors and pledge that we will make our best effort to participate. It becomes much more difficult for us to go against our word when the moment of truth presents itself in the woods.
Establishing a co op and communicating with neighbors helps to identifty those that will shoot does and those that won't, or don't take enough. This can let the "old guard" off the hook when it comes to taking antlerless and those that are willing can take up the slack.
If your neighbors don't know you on a personal level then it's real easy for them to disregard your concerns for how the deer in your neighborhood are managed. You may not have anything other than deer hunting in common with them so why not foster that shared interest and befriend them?;) Some of my closest friends are neighbors I didn't know, other than to wave, prior to the formation of our co op 10 years ago.:)

Big T

QDMAMAN ...You presuppose quite a bit …

I know all of my neighbors very well … had breakfast with one on Sat, dropped some Tomatoes off to one & his wife later, and sat in the drive drinking beer with two of them until after the street lights came on Sat night … :D

They brought trail camera photos of 3 bucks that are 150” plus. One is approaching 170” of better. We have been watching these bucks for some time. I have learned to trust a few that have the discipline for QDM.

The last thing I would do is be so arrogant as to badger & preach to them how they should hunt. I present ideas and let my results guide/motivate their thinking. Those that start to follow, enjoy the results, those that don’t create opportunities for us with their poor tactics... ;)

There are 3 topics that always lead to heated arguments in Wisconsin … politics, religion, & deer management.

Whitetail Jiu-Jitsu
08-31-2011, 10:41 AM
I have a good scenario to pose to you guys for your opinion.

In our hunting camp it is made up of two families and a few other individual guys. The properties that are hunted are 10 miles away from each other but until last year the only place to sleep was at our property. The families have hunted together sense the 60s. At our place there is 4 of us, 3 from my family and one brother from the other family. At their place there is 8-10 of them, the two other brothers, their kids, and some friends of theirs. The sizes are 280 and 350 acres respectfully.

At our property we have been doing some form of management for approximately 8 years, they do no management. As we have gotten more into QDM there has been a slight rift at times between the two camps. In the last 3 years we have shot 3 bucks that are 3.5 or older and 7 does. They have shot 8 or 9 bucks that are 1.5 or 2.5 and probably the same amount of does. Although they shoot more bucks than us I have still been called 'lucky' at times for harvesting the nicest buck in camp.

It has gotten to the point in which some of the members didn't even come to the shed and look at the buck I shot last year. Now, to start with my dad and I really preached QDM, food plots, and trail cameras. We have sense stopped talking to them about it and I don't really talk deer at all with them while in deer camp. One of their brothers started food plots a few years ago, runs cams, and is keen on the idea of QDM but has not totally switched over. It seems that the rest either don't care or are against it.

The question is, how do we go about either A, getting them to start practicing QDM so we can have similar experiences and talk hunting again? Or B, at least have a civil deer camp and not ruin the 50 year relationship between the two families?

QDMAMAN
08-31-2011, 10:57 AM
QDMAMAN ...You presuppose quite a bit …

I know all of my neighbors very well …

Sorry Spud, that was not my intention. I was simply using your post as a metaphor.:)

dahusker
08-31-2011, 11:08 AM
The last thing I would do is be so arrogant as to badger & preach to them how they should hunt. I present ideas and let my results guide/motivate their thinking. Those that start to follow, enjoy the results, those that don’t create opportunities for us with their poor tactics...

Tree Spud,
You nailed it there. However, jealousy often leads to mis-interpretations in my case. I used to show pictures and try to simply educate. You are so correct. The intent can't be to force anyone or give the impression of "telling someone what they SHOULD be doing". Just try and educate if you can and those that want to learn or change their tactics to yield different results will. Those that won't will simply see the same old results. In my case, that is road hunting and driving deer. Those scared whitetails often end up in my family's security cover eating on my food plots. If they are young bucks I am doing everyone a favor by allowing them to grow another year because we sure as heck aren't going to kill them. Some don't see it that way though. They see those deer as ones they can't kill and have access too. That has lead to some bitterness. Instead of learning that they are causing it, they see it as me being the problem because I'm not doing it the "way it's always been done". You can lead a horse to water...

QDMAMAN
08-31-2011, 11:14 AM
The question is, how do we go about either A, getting them to start practicing QDM so we can have similar experiences and talk hunting again? Or B, at least have a civil deer camp and not ruin the 50 year relationship between the two families?

The simple answer would be to abandon your QDM practices.;)
To get along all of the time would be to follow the least common denominator.
There will always be people that don't exert the same amount of effort or maintain the same level of excellence as you do.
In my experience here in Michigan, "tradition" is the biggest obsticle to progressive deer management. I was told by a very wise man once, that it would take a generation for QDM to get a foothold in Michigan. a decade later his words are still ringing in my head.
Your situation is one that I'm glad I don't have deal with.
You mentioned that the other camp has "sons" hunting. Are you promoting QDM without exempting "kids"? There may be the perseption that you want to deny the kids something that all the older hunter had the chance to experience. At the same time, it's often difficult for older hunters to justify holding off on younger bucks, if there are kids in camp that will have a green light to shoot them.

Big T

Scarecrow
08-31-2011, 12:58 PM
I’ve come to realize one thing QDM is like religion or politics. Everyone is going to have their own opinion. Can’t force my views or philosophies……”what I think is the right way” on other people. Lucky for me learning about QDM and this site has opened my world to more than just
Hunting. The past few years I now get as much enjoyment out of planting plots, planting trees, and habitat improvement as I do hunting……well almost as much ;) . I’m now enjoying my
Property more than I have since I purchased it. Yea I still have neighbors practicing the old brown and down……still dealing with the slob road hunters…….still dealing with the slob trespassers……I have curtailed the road hunting and the trespassing……but when it comes to how my neighbors hunt I’ve come to realize that’s “their” choice……and I have to respect that if I want them to respect mine.

DavidB
08-31-2011, 01:37 PM
Perfectly said Scarecrow!!!

I have one neighbor whose property backs up to my sanctuary. His property is nothing but pasture and I fear I am going to have to deal with him this season. He lives on his property and I do not.
Game cams are going to have to work for me with him. I have put up no nonsense posted signs and I have had a pretty good habit of showing up at odd times of the week and not been consistent at what time of day I get there either. I have talked to him once and wS not impressed with his character at all. My first impressions are generally pretty good.

crimson n' camo
08-31-2011, 02:26 PM
Tree Spud,
You nailed it there. However, jealousy often leads to mis-interpretations in my case. I used to show pictures and try to simply educate. You are so correct. The intent can't be to force anyone or give the impression of "telling someone what they SHOULD be doing". Just try and educate if you can and those that want to learn or change their tactics to yield different results will. Those that won't will simply see the same old results. In my case, that is road hunting and driving deer. Those scared whitetails often end up in my family's security cover eating on my food plots. If they are young bucks I am doing everyone a favor by allowing them to grow another year because we sure as heck aren't going to kill them. Some don't see it that way though. They see those deer as ones they can't kill and have access too. That has lead to some bitterness. Instead of learning that they are causing it, they see it as me being the problem because I'm not doing it the "way it's always been done". You can lead a horse to water...

Man, this sounds really similar to my situation. I think one of my downfalls may have been in my approach. I took some trail cam pics with me and a pic of a very mature buck that I had killed a year before. In my head I was thinking that this my be a good ice breaker and a way of showing them that I was much more than just another brown and down hunter who's only interest in hunting is "shooting something." Well, I saw that backfire right off the bat. It seemed to strike more of the jealousy nerve that you are talking about rather than peak any interest in what I may have been doing.

Another thing that really got me down about the whole encounter was that the evening before opening day they decided to build a new wooden tree stand right near the property line. Thankfully we are seperated by a big beaver pond. I thought the whole hunt was ruined......nope!!! All they did was push the deer deeper on to me. Saw 10 then next morning.

sandbur
09-01-2011, 10:15 PM
I have a good scenario to pose to you guys for your opinion.

In our hunting camp it is made up of two families and a few other individual guys. The properties that are hunted are 10 miles away from each other but until last year the only place to sleep was at our property. The families have hunted together sense the 60s. At our place there is 4 of us, 3 from my family and one brother from the other family. At their place there is 8-10 of them, the two other brothers, their kids, and some friends of theirs. The sizes are 280 and 350 acres respectfully.

At our property we have been doing some form of management for approximately 8 years, they do no management. As we have gotten more into QDM there has been a slight rift at times between the two camps. In the last 3 years we have shot 3 bucks that are 3.5 or older and 7 does. They have shot 8 or 9 bucks that are 1.5 or 2.5 and probably the same amount of does. Although they shoot more bucks than us I have still been called 'lucky' at times for harvesting the nicest buck in camp.

It has gotten to the point in which some of the members didn't even come to the shed and look at the buck I shot last year. Now, to start with my dad and I really preached QDM, food plots, and trail cameras. We have sense stopped talking to them about it and I don't really talk deer at all with them while in deer camp. One of their brothers started food plots a few years ago, runs cams, and is keen on the idea of QDM but has not totally switched over. It seems that the rest either don't care or are against it.

The question is, how do we go about either A, getting them to start practicing QDM so we can have similar experiences and talk hunting again? Or B, at least have a civil deer camp and not ruin the 50 year relationship between the two families?

WJJ-I like scarecrow"s answer.

I think you have to talk about habitat, feeding areas that are natural and planted, locations of runs and crossings and all of the things that hunters have shared stories aobut for years. You can still be friends and just assume that your goals are different.

Five to ten years ago, I was a big supporter of QDM. I sent my neighbors memberships for quite a few years. I talked to one neighbor about the program and he just did not think it would work with the friends and relatives that he allowed to hunt his farm. One month he attended a QDM meeting and asked me about forming a coop. Guess who is no longer interested? Me! Our goals change as we age in life. I now have two young hunters that I want to enjoy the hunt. I want them to enjoy shooting any deer that they wish and I want to do the same thing and share the enthusiasm with them. They can focus on antlers at a later age if they wish. I want them to grow up with an enthusiasm for the hunt. Another factor is that my wife says that old bucks are just not quality venison and that we should shoot the younger bucks.

My point is that we all hunt for different reasons and goals. These goals can change with time. My neighbor and I are still best of friends. I just cannot promise to not shoot young bucks and then break my promise. I want to stick to my word.

sandbur
09-01-2011, 10:21 PM
I would add that the last few years, I have really enjoyed the hunt.

I am no longer frustrated when a neighbor shoots a young buck. I smile and shake his hand. I want my kids to do the same thing, as long as the deer was taken legally. Just have a good time.

WJJ- Perhaps the guys from the other camp are jealous of your big buck. I do not know you personally, but some people are obsessed with antler score and it turns other hunters off. We each hunt with different goals.

Whitetail Jiu-Jitsu
09-01-2011, 10:56 PM
I would add that the last few years, I have really enjoyed the hunt.

I am no longer frustrated when a neighbor shoots a young buck. I smile and shake his hand. I want my kids to do the same thing, as long as the deer was taken legally. Just have a good time.

WJJ- Perhaps the guys from the other camp are jealous of your big buck. I do not know you personally, but some people are obsessed with antler score and it turns other hunters off. We each hunt with different goals.

I can tell you, I am not obsessed with antler score, the buck barely brakes 100 inches. But, it met the age class I was looking for. I focus on age, not antlers. If I focused on antlers I would never 'measure up'. Score wise he is 4th largest deer but experience wise it was easily #1. Others might not see it that way though.

Scarecrow does put it into perspective. I interpret what he says as 'you can only control yourself'. So, don't try and force your beliefs on to others if they are happy with how they are hunting. Enjoy what you have because in the end that is important.

I also wouldn't fault you for shooting young bucks if your goals is to have your kids enjoy the season. I shot plenty of yearlings when I started. I am a firm believer that in order to get kids excited about hunting they need to harvest something, otherwise it is perceived as a waste of time. Old bucks don't taste as good, that is why we always get our does too.

I honestly want them to practice QDM so they can get the same enjoyment out of land management as I do. Other than my dad, I have no 'hunting buddies'. I grew up with their family and always wanted both generations of them to be as dedicated as I am so we had something in common. I might need to just accept the fact that they are not going to be what I want them to but, extend the olive branch again and talk hunting without mentioning antlers.

Not easy, but what else can you do?

sandbur
09-01-2011, 11:04 PM
WJJ-We just have to accept that others do not have the dedication, or maybe the time, or maybe the money, or maybe the spouse that allows them to do things as we do. To each his own, just as to what they kill.

By QDM, do you mean the management of the young buck harvest or do you mean the land managment part of the equation? Many would be interested in your experience with the land management. They may do things in a different way, based on the resources they have available. I'll bet you could connect with them on some points there. It is hard to say how far their interests will carry them in land management.

brutusbeefcake
09-02-2011, 12:04 AM
Just got done reading this whole thread in one sitting. Some thoughts.

-Way to many of you guys are about the antlers.

-On the other hand, if antlers were not a benefit of qdm there would be maybe 9 people who would practice it in the USA.

-while many have come on board because of the antlers, this shouldn't be our core "lure" of drawing the interest of our neighbors.

-Sandbur, I'm confused by your support of QDM :confused: You're on here a lot but when it comes to doing whats right for the health of the local deer herd it sure doesn't add up to QDM. What's wrong with going without a buck for 10 or 15 years and shooting does for the meat. They just as good eatin as the yearlings. If it's really just about the hunt then just having the opportunity to harvest a 1 1/2 year old should be just as satisfying if not more then shooting him.
I understand what you mean that "it's all about the hunt" to each person but it's not like your the clueless neighbor who is just out to do some lead flingin.
I also am completely happy for my neighbor who whacks a yearling buck and has a big ol grin on his face, I'm going to offer my congrats and ask him to tell me the story about how it all happened. It just seems this (it's all about the hunt") has become a crutch for you thinking you have to fill your tag. It appears you just have to much "brown it's down" blood to really care and have given up on passing good management decisions onto the next generation.

-Expectations are to high for our neighbors

- We need to only have 1 neighbor who's on board to start a coop and then work with them and find 1 more. If you only have 25% of your neighbors on board that's all it takes. Can work with less then this too.

-When introducing yourself to your neighbor, find the common ground you have with him and build off of that

-your neighbors listen better if you listen to them first with the attitude that there's something we can learn from them.

-We are entering our 8th year in our local co-op and some are passing up 3 year olds and others just 1/ 1/2 year olds. We preach expectations heavily at our coop meetings.

-The day I think I WILL make my neighbor GET IT is the day he will decide I'm full of it.

-I honestly think I would work in many of ya'lls areas if you would focus on these two things.

1.) Focusing ONLY on the ones that are on the same page as you. The others are a work in progress anywhere from 1-10 years maybe more.

2.) Change your tactics from look at the bucks you can harvest to more of a biological route of how can we become better managers of what we have.

I realize there may be areas that it's impossible to start a coop and you're best bet is to go elsewhere but as someone suggested earlier there's a whole lot more interest then we often think. It just takes someone to actually pursue it.
How we pursue it will determine much of the success or failure.

-We need some of the hunting organization giants such as bass pro & cabela's, someone other then the DNR, everyone just gets mad at them, to really hop on board with more agressive educational events on proper herd management. It doesn't have to all be under the QDMA label.

banc123
09-02-2011, 07:43 AM
When I ran the Fl property , I spoke to everyone who controlled hunting land with a mile. Which wasn't hard because that was 3 people. I never brought up QDM, didn't have to. They did when they saw my pics of plots and trail cams. They wanted to know how to replicate it. 2 took an interest in age based harvest, 1 did not.

On the new property in Ga, we're 1,000 acres of woods with a mile of clear cut on the N and S side and a ag farm on the W side and chicken farm on the east. The only hunters are on the S side and there isn't much QDM talk when all they have is a 500 acre leased clear cut that is in the process of being turned into a cow pasture. They are meat hunters, and thats fine.

sandbur
09-02-2011, 07:46 AM
bbc-You are correct on many points. I first became interested in this forum because of antlers. I am now on the forum because I feel it is the best source of knowledge on habitat management.

As to your question as to why I do not shoot a doe instead of a yearling. IN one area, where I hunt we have up to 5 doe tags each. No one in our family had a chance at a mature doe last year. Yes, deer numbers are that low. And I hunted most of 9 days with a rifle and about 7 with a bow. the game manager for our area has decided that deer numbers are that high that we should continue to have up to 5 doe tags. In my small part of this area, I feel he is incorrect. Other parts of the area have higher populations and people have not shot the does like my family has in our area. The game manager has a tough job and is just doing his best for the overall area. My family likes to eat venison. It is most of the burger that we eat. My wife and my daughters like the young deer. So what do we shoot? For last year we shot two yearling bucks and a doe fawn. One of my daughters was very happy with her yearling buck. The last few years, I have been shotting doe fawns and think that in my particular situation, not shooting the adult does is the best choice for our area. Perhaps it is now time to pass on the doe fawns, but we do like to eat fawns. I feel the deer numbers on our farm could stand a slight increase in numbers.

On to the other area where I hunt. Many hunters in that area did not have a doe tag. Only a buck tag. So they can't shoot does(as of last year). They pay lots of property taxes and in most cases they try and hold onto the land for deer hunting. It is an economically depressed area. MOre older peoole and unemployed that are lucky they obatined their land when things were going good. Many of them just want a deer to eat and there is more of a tradition of eating venison. this is the area that I grew up in with many life long friends and shirt tail relatives.

Three gentleman in this area come to mind. Two are in their 60's and one in his 80's. What do they want to shoot? Yearling bucks. Not older bucks. They want qualilty venison for the table.

I'm sorry about the long post. Just trying to explain my position.

sandbur
09-02-2011, 08:04 AM
bbvc-I got to agree that people need to look at proper herd management. I jsut do not think QDMA has addressed what proper herd management might be in some areas. It might be that the traditional hunt in those areas is the best option. I would like every QDMA member to look at his herd and think about his situation. Is he really doing what is best for the deer or is he just doing it for antlers.

Some specific points come to mind for me. Are more mature bucks and more bucks in general a good thing for a deer herd with CWD? Our state started mandatory APR's in one area and now that area has it first CWD case in wild deer. The CWD zone no longer has any antler rstricitons other than one buck per year and unlimited deer harvest. Good choices for our biologists in my view.

I do not hunt the area of our state with mandatory APR's but question if they were really needed for proper deer management or just to grow better antlers for a few hunters. I think the mandatory APR's need to be discussed with hunters from all areas of the state and explanations be given as to which areas would benefit from mandatory APR's. The ideas of mandatory APR's have turned many against QDM ideas that hunt in areas with different deer populations and different habitats.

I also tend to believe that our winter weather controls when the rut occurs and that young bucks and a few older bucks do just fine at getting our does bred. One biologist on this forum seems to think the same thing, If Iinterpret his posts correctly. I am not trying to put words in his mouth.

M.Magis
09-02-2011, 08:59 AM
Wow, a lot of you would enjoy hunting a lot more if you’d quit worrying about what your neighbors are doing. :rolleyes:

brutusbeefcake
09-02-2011, 09:13 AM
Sandbur,
It's obvious you have a difficult situation with the CWD and all. I feel badly for someone in that situation and don't have any solutions to the issue. I've never been in an area with CWD and hope to never have to.
Thanks for the explanation of your thinking.
As far as working with your neighbors I think it would be good to sit down with them and do some brainstorming on ways to address the situation at hand. You be the facilitator and start drawing the ideas out of them, then have them critic their own ideas and see where you end up at.
Does anyone really have any good ideas on how a coop should look in a CWD area?

sandbur
09-02-2011, 01:26 PM
Just to be clear, I am not in a CWD area. And I hope it never happens during my life. I do hope our state makes the right decisions to slow it's spread.

I think it is a good question about what QDM should be in a CWD area.

I also think it would be worthwhile for my neighbors and I to sit down and visit. We really are good friends and no animosity with nearly all of them. And we are all avid deer hunters. We just have different goals at different points in our life.