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Massey135
12-17-2010, 10:11 PM
On my grandfathers farm in NE PA, there are a couple dozen apple trees that have been producing every year since 1960 and hold their fruit until early-mid november. There has been NO maintainance of these trees during that time. I'd like to transplant some to the mountains of sw Virginia. As I'm not able to transport a 25' tree, what would be the best way to make this happen?
Seeds? Grafting? Find a small one growing wild?

bigmike
12-17-2010, 10:20 PM
massey
airlayering???????

innova
12-17-2010, 10:30 PM
Grafting.

Send me some scionwood and cover the shipping and I'll graft a few for you.

Bnhpr
12-17-2010, 10:33 PM
On my grandfathers farm in NE PA, there are a couple dozen apple trees that have been producing every year since 1960 and hold their fruit until early-mid november. There has been NO maintainance of these trees during that time. I'd like to transplant some to the mountains of sw Virginia. As I'm not able to transport a 25' tree, what would be the best way to make this happen?
Seeds? Grafting? Find a small one growing wild?

I don't consider myself an expert on anything, but since time is such a factor with propagating trees, I would pursue grafting and raising seedlings at the same time.

Unless, the trees are/were grafted originally, planted in rows etc. In this case, I would graft them to a known rootstock.

Ben

smsmith
12-17-2010, 10:33 PM
Grafting.

Send me some scionwood and cover the shipping and I'll graft a few for you.

Couple things - +1 to grafting (or budding), and that's a heck of a nice offer innova.

Of course, if a scion or two found it's way onto a wayward rootstock that wouldn't be all bad either.;)

Massey135
12-17-2010, 10:35 PM
Wow - Thanks Bigmike - at first I thought you were speaking portugese or something. I'd never heard of that. But I googled it and it sounds like it might work. It's simple and easy. Anyone else ever do this with apple trees successfully?

Massey135
12-17-2010, 10:38 PM
Whats a scion?? Suddenly, I find myself talking in a different language:D

bigmike
12-17-2010, 10:44 PM
i tried it a couple years ago but birds pecked holes in the film and i also used clear plastic. i have seen something that you put on a branch and fill it with peat and put a lid on it and water it but i can't find the info on my computer. it was pretty cool looking. i'm going to try it again this year on an appletree at my moms. it was planted in the 50's, blew over and i think its rooted by the branched being on the ground. its LOADED every year and the trunk is barely an inch thick now so i think its on borrowed time.

there is also a grafting class at virginia vintage apples in nelson county i'd like to take. that place is fascinating. if you ever have time you should check it out. they gave me a couple albemarle pippins last year when i stopped by.

smsmith
12-17-2010, 10:47 PM
It's simple and easy. Anyone else ever do this with apple trees successfully?

Yeah, it does look simple and easy doesn't it? :p

A fair number of folks on this board do grafting and budding annually.

innova
12-17-2010, 11:07 PM
if a scion or two found it's way onto a wayward rootstock

Darn it he's onto me again.

No big deal. I do 50-100 a year depending on how ambitious I get and my local orchard guy has about 6 good varieties. Any way that you can get your hands on some heritage or good wild apple is a worthwhile endeavor.

Grafting isn't hard but its not simple either. There are many ways to do it but they all have in common one thing - a good flat faced cut.

Scionwood is the vigorous one year old growth at the top of the tree or lateral branches growing vertically. It has vegetative (leaf) buds and is usually long and whippy, about 3/8" (pencil thickness) diameter. Grafting is simply taking roostock and a scion and mating the living tissue together in a way that the tree grows as one. What it gets you is the desired fruit characteristic of the scion and the hardiness and growth habit of the roots.

smsmith
12-17-2010, 11:12 PM
Any way that you can get your hands on some heritage or good wild apple is a worthwhile endeavor.

Absolutely agree. My statement about you being willing to do that was genuine.

At some point I wish someone here would organize a scion exchange, as well as a few folks starting to do some custom grafting for fellow forum users. With all the interest in apples, especially antiques and disease resistant apples I really think it would be cool.

I learned my lesson trying to put together a "group buy" on miscanthus rhizomes. Good idea, I just didn't have the ability to deal with all of the details. Now, someone with more organizational skills than I - well they could do a heck of a job.

bigmike
12-17-2010, 11:12 PM
http://www.charleysgreenhouse.com/8608-Rooting-Pot--4-per-pak-.htm

thats the link for the airplayering pot. called a "rooting pot"

Massey135
12-17-2010, 11:13 PM
Ok - After a little googling, I now know what a scion is, although, I still don't know the proper pronunciation. Innova, if you are serious with that offer, I'll gladly take you up on it. That was a very kind offer. Bigmike - thanks for the heads up on the Nelson County thing. Looks like they're having workshops in Feb and March..If I can swing it, I'll check it out. All of this seems a little daunting to me, though. On a side note - My dad told me his father was an "expert" at grafting. (not the same grandad with the aformentioned trees) and that he had a tree in his yard as a kid with 5-6 different apple varieties on it. I've always wondered if this was possible, or if it was just one of those "walk to school uphill" stories.

bigmike
12-17-2010, 11:17 PM
thats funny! my brother has a 5n1. it has five different types of apples on it. who wants to duplicate that tree!:eek: and that thing was LOADED this year!

Massey135
12-17-2010, 11:18 PM
Lol - By the time I got back here from googling, all my questions we're answered:D You guys are great!!!! Next time, I'll just pop a cold one and wait a few minutes.

smsmith
12-17-2010, 11:24 PM
http://www.charleysgreenhouse.com/8608-Rooting-Pot--4-per-pak-.htm

thats the link for the airplayering pot. called a "rooting pot"

I'm sure someone could get those things to work, but it ain't me. I even tried them on easy to root things like poplar with no success. Think sandbur tried them too, not sure but I think he was unsuccessful too.

The one "catch" with using those on fruit trees - if you could successfully get them to root you would indeed have a clone of the desired tree. However, it would be "on own roots". That isn't all bad, but it generally means waiting quite awhile for fruit. The reason to use a rootstock and a scion is to produce fruit more quickly, get some better disease resistance (in certified virus free stock anyway), various rooting styles and adaptability to different kinds of soil.

Worth a shot though. I'd sell mine cheap :D

smsmith
12-17-2010, 11:27 PM
...he had a tree in his yard as a kid with 5-6 different apple varieties on it. I've always wondered if this was possible, or if it was just one of those "walk to school uphill" stories.

There used to be a tree in Gays Mills, WI that had around 100 different varieties budded onto it. It was very cool. Think it split due to high winds a number of years ago. It may still be there, but I don't think so.

Definitely possible to do. I've got at least two varieties budded onto several trees. My goal is to bud a blooming crabapple onto each apple to aid in pollination. Plus, it's just cool........................

sacco
12-17-2010, 11:46 PM
.

At some point I wish someone here would organize a scion exchange.

i thought someone already started one

http://forums.qdma.com/showthread.php?t=37044

Massey135
12-17-2010, 11:52 PM
Innova -How would I go about harvesting scions and mailing them? If you'd like some, I'll gladly send you a bunch. These trees are located about 100 yards from the old family cemetary and about 400 yards from the homestead. My Grandmother said these trees were old when my grandad bought the place in 1960. They may have been planted before the current farmhouse was built in 1930s. There was an older homestead about 60-70 yards from the trees, but no-one knows when it was built/torn down. They are likely REALLY old apple trees. They're mostly green with slight red tint on them. There is a concentration of 15-20 trees with 7 -8 widely scattered trees within 150 yards. The production is unbelievable, and I've always been amazed by this, despite the neglect.

smsmith
12-18-2010, 12:01 AM
i thought someone already started one

http://forums.qdma.com/showthread.php?t=37044

You'll note how quickly that one died ;)

It would require someone keeping the thread at the top of the page so everyone who checks in from time to time would see it. It could be done for sure, just require some organization. On a small scale (like the folks on that thread) it would be pretty easy to do. Maybe that should be the goal?

innova
12-18-2010, 01:20 AM
You don't need to worry about scionwood until at least March or lets say when the daytime temps are above freezing and the night temps are still cool - well before the trees bud out but not when its nasty outside.

The only caveat with OLD trees is they may simply not put on any new growth but just maintain their existing growth at 0.5 - 1" per year. Its might hard to get suitable grafting wood off those trees because you want 1 year old wood. Following pic shows a growth collar - everything above is year old wood and below is older wood.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i40.tinypic.com/11bu54g.jpg&imgrefurl=http://simple-green-frugal-co-op.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html&usg=__HmSuN0oOnAl5jS9hGj5DVo7umO0=&h=480&w=640&sz=83&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=F1ePjgVY4HN88M:&tbnh=113&tbnw=145&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dapple%2Bscion%2Bwood%2Bfor%2Bsale%26u m%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1238%26bih%3D616% 26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=156&ei=S0QMTafPFoGQnwelmpzJDg&oei=IEQMTerwN4KfnAfpw4HgDQ&esq=10&page=1&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:0&tx=42&ty=54

This is BAD scionwood
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.bighorsecreekfarm.com/bighorsecreekf/images/Bad%2520scionwood.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bighorsecreekfarm.com/horticulture.htm&usg=__D9XcCqx6XEBjws02ZiO1PvWZxb8=&h=1153&w=939&sz=181&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=Zzm7b-WOnrGmaM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dscionwood%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D 1238%26bih%3D616%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=576&vpy=91&dur=3666&hovh=249&hovw=203&tx=94&ty=159&ei=7EQMTf3WD9D8nAezrPHQDQ&oei=7EQMTf3WD9D8nAezrPHQDQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0

This is good scionwood. Note this is all first year growth.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.bighorsecreekfarm.com/bighorsecreekf/images/Good%2520scionwood.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bighorsecreekfarm.com/horticulture.htm&usg=__LeZ9MQBCtCCxsFu0u-DSbeSf8KQ=&h=1157&w=943&sz=180&hl=en&start=22&zoom=1&tbnid=KGtRN6DACLHQLM:&tbnh=159&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dscion%2Bwood%2Bselection%26um%3D1%26h l%3Den%26biw%3D1238%26bih%3D616%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=172&ei=BkYMTbzbH8G1nAfA1pHaDQ&oei=AkYMTcPWOs3_nAeGxODWDQ&esq=2&page=2&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:22&tx=66&ty=22

sandbur
12-18-2010, 08:36 AM
http://www.charleysgreenhouse.com/8608-Rooting-Pot--4-per-pak-.htm

thats the link for the airplayering pot. called a "rooting pot"

I tried them for two years. No luck at all in my climate. Maybe in a different climate the results would be different. I was working with a wild crab and a rootstock crab.

sandbur
12-18-2010, 08:40 AM
[QUOTE=innova;355489]You don't need to worry about scionwood until at least March or lets say when the daytime temps are above freezing and the night temps are still cool - well before the trees bud out but not when its nasty outside.

The only caveat with OLD trees is they may simply not put on any new growth but just maintain their existing growth at 0.5 - 1" per year. Its might hard to get suitable grafting wood off those trees because you want 1 year old wood. Following pic shows a growth collar - everything above is year old wood and below is older wood.

Since we had a wet summer and little apple production, should we have better scionwood?

You guys have almost convinced me to try grafting again. but I really do not need any more apples.
\
A friend of mine had a storm take his pollinating Manchurian apricot out, back two summers. He now has a branch grafted to one of the other apricots for pollinating . You must be able to graft apricots, also.

sandbur
12-18-2010, 08:42 AM
Somehow I eliminated full credit to innova for the first part of my previous post.

Bnhpr
12-18-2010, 09:11 AM
Absolutely agree. My statement about you being willing to do that was genuine.

At some point I wish someone here would organize a scion exchange, as well as a few folks starting to do some custom grafting for fellow forum users. With all the interest in apples, especially antiques and disease resistant apples I really think it would be cool.

I learned my lesson trying to put together a "group buy" on miscanthus rhizomes. Good idea, I just didn't have the ability to deal with all of the details. Now, someone with more organizational skills than I - well they could do a heck of a job.

I can donate some to the exchange.

Lets get a list of apples we have.

On older trees, the best scionwood is at the tip top on the sunny side. If you prune a tree, it reacts by forming scions th next year.

smsmith
12-18-2010, 11:39 AM
You guys have almost convinced me to try grafting again. but I really do not need any more apples.

A friend of mine had a storm take his pollinating Manchurian apricot out, back two summers. He now has a branch grafted to one of the other apricots for pollinating . You must be able to graft apricots, also.

How about pears or plums?

Yes, you can graft apricots. Manchurian apricot is used for rootstock on a number of prunus species as I recall. Very hardy.

Did your friend's tree produce fruit?

lone cedar farm
12-18-2010, 12:08 PM
Grafting.

Send me some scionwood and cover the shipping and I'll graft a few for you.

Thats an offer I wouldnt turn down, mighty nice of you innova! ;)

smsmith
12-18-2010, 01:17 PM
I can donate some to the exchange.

Lets get a list of apples we have.

On older trees, the best scionwood is at the tip top on the sunny side. If you prune a tree, it reacts by forming scions th next year.

Mighty nice of you Ben. I'm probably not the best one to put this together. I did a fair amount of summer pruning so I don't have much to offer to the exchange. Next year maybe.

I'd have to take a walk about to even see what I do have to offer.

womblesd
12-18-2010, 07:59 PM
I can donate some scion wood to an exchange, or to someone in my area that would like to drop by when I am pruning late this winter. Here are some of the antiques I have (21 total but can't remember one of them):

Harrison, golden russet, roxbury russet, yates, arkansas black, black twig, baldwin, ashmeads kernel, graniwinkle, grimes golden, michelin, northern spy, winesap, pitmaston pinnapple, rome beauty, albemarle pippin, cox's orange pippin, spice of old virginia, smiths cider, smokehouse

All of these antiques are considered great cider apples and great "keepers" in storage.