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dgallow
12-06-2010, 05:16 PM
Seems once again the need to clarify a few misconceptions. Comments below are in regards to various previous posts and I didn't want to hyjack the thread another member thoughtfully raised.

Deer can browse on the green leaves of an "ag" soybean just as easily as they can a "forage" soybean, sure there may be "more tonnage" on forage beans BUT is that really an issue? (If it is you need a bigger foodplot)

Most likely one needs to whack and stack the nannies and improve native habitat! If over browsing is an issue, why plant an ag bean which is less tolerant of browsing than Eagle forage soybeans? Many food plotters, including some here (do a search), will attest to the high browse tolerance/plant recovery of Eagle beans vs common ag beans after heavy browsing. Most cases the ag beans are damaged beyond recovery (unless e-fence is used). Also depends on what stage/where the plant is browsed.

Grant Woods is a great unbiased information. He has extensive soybean plotting experience across the country. His opinions are based on fact and performance and not fluff. Before plotting is instilled as a management practice, doe numbers need to be reduced below carrying capacity and native habitat optimized...please review the writings of Craig Harper.

The only thing I would add from my experience is to make sure the "ag" soybean you use is shatter resistant or you may find that all your soybeans end up on the ground due to the pods shattering open. This was the primary driving force behind the development of our Real World Soybean blend

Most university soybean testing provides a ‘shatter score’ for each variety tested (before that variety is released for public use)....very likely the info on the variety one has can be found there. Shatter resistance is a HUGE concern for commercial ag because weather conditions at harvest will be unknown. Soybean breeders, brokers, and farmers all want a bean which will remain in pod should harvest be delayed several months beyond ‘optimum harvest date’ because of inclement weather. Without high shatter resistance economic losses would be huge....no commodity based enterprise would knowingly take that risk That is why soy varieties are tested before release. I have presented info regarding ‘university test shatter score’ before...98+% of varieties tested last year by the UA were high in shatter resistance score. Shatter may be scored differently or determined at a different time after maturity in far northern locations. I do understand your viewpoint regarding extremes of winter weather on pod integrity. Perhaps shatter score commonly used in tests is too much of a ‘subjective measure’ for your goal!

Eagle is working on getting group 2 forage beans to market. It's coming - and they will produce a bunch more pods than ag beans.

I have not spoken to Brad about breeding of early maturing forage varieties...novel idea. The late maturing forage varieties rank ‘in the middle of the pack’ when dry bean yield is compared to ag varieties. Areas, like portions of SC, however routinely plant Group VII ag beans. Dry bean yield of Eagle soys can be found in university test results....nothing hidden. Keep in mind the primary goal of Eagle forage beans is increased quality and quantity of forage until frost...dry bean yield is a secondary goal. Eagle also breeds and brokers ag bean varieties which are included in the Managers Mix......there is a northern and a southern version of managers mix. EAL...do you sell both?

Also, taking advice from others is a good way to save you time and expense from making mistakes, however why not try your own trial before coming to concrete conclusions. Do your own side by side comparison trial and from then on you will know for sure what works best in your area.

To a degree I agree. However, most foages for food plots have very likely been ‘tested’ by a local university or extension service. Simply select what is adapted to your area and heed area specific planting guidelines. Most food plotters haven’t the foggiest of clue how to properly set up a valid variety/preference test, hence the results are often misleading and inconclusive. My best advice is to ask a crop/forage specialist or wildlife biologist about a particular planting, if that info is not first available through local university or extension testing. Plant the seed, monitor deer use and plant response to browsing. Then address ‘gaps’ in that planting....never rely solely on one food plot plant.

This is either a play on words or unitentionally decieving. There may be "more pods" on these beans but I am willing to bet that the yield in actual "soybeans" per acre wont compare. Right now in our test plots the forage beans may have as many or maybe even more "pods" but not even close to the "tonnage" of actual soybeans. In fact the forage beans we are testing have about 2 beans the size of BBs per pod where the Real World beans have more pods per nodule and 3 or 4 bigger beans per pod. With the millions of dollars that the ag industry, universities and companies such as Monsanto put into soybean research (mainly for higher yields and disease resistance to get those yields), there is no way a foodplot seed company is going to top them in actual soybean yield.

As for my "beans the size of BBs" comment, have you ever looked at the actual seed beans that come in a bag of these forage beans???? There are beans in those bags that are the size of BBs. As one seed salesman told me, "Man if I tried to sell a farmer a bag of beans that looked like that I would starve". You dont have to look in your foodplots to find BB sized beans, just look in the seed bag itself!!!!

Per bean yield, see my comments above. Again in ‘valid testing’, bean yield of late maturing Eagle forage soybeans (LL and MM) ranked in the middle of the pack compared to ag beans. Suspect an early maturing forage type will be no different when compared to similar maturing ag types. ‘Personal testaments’ vary...some plotters say yield is higher and some much lower. Bottom line question, Is the yield of pods/beans from Eagle beans sufficient for your property? Remember bean yield is not the primary goal of LL and MM. If not, then include an ag bean, rely on the appropriate Managers Mix, or plant more acres. Full pod development in LL and MM depends on planting at the correct time, good growing conditions during the summer, and optimum P and K fertility/pH, esp so in areas where late maturing beans are an iffy proposition.

Forage bean seeds on average are smaller than ag types. Seeds per lb are printed on each bag for both ag and forage types (say 180,000 for forage vs 140,000 for ag). However, LL and MM seeds are rarely if ever BB size by any means. The vining type is the smallest of seeds and not even be that small (maybe a 200k/50 lb bean)....similar to Quail Haven.

Obviously, forage beans did not reach full pod fill in Don’s comparison for whatever reason. Were they planted when soil temp first reached 62F at a 2" depth per Eagle’s rec? Were soil nutrients optimum? Optimum temp/moisture? Did you sample at random and count seeds per lb? Again, planting time and growing conditions are most critical when planting late maturing beans in northern latitudes with limited growing degree days and high potential for early killing frost.

Why was the Real World MIX not compared to the Managers MIX? Esp, knowing that the Managers MIX contains ag bean varieties? The NORTHERN MANAGERS MIX vs Real World MIX seems most comparable? Comparing ag beans and forage beans is nothing new nor a big secret!

dgallow
12-06-2010, 05:17 PM
Eagle Seed is NOT a ‘food plot company’!!!!!! Bags bear no ‘stereotypical big buck’ nor will you find Eagle varieties in a Food Plot Blend offered by others. Eagle Seed is a soybean breeder, an ag seed brokerage, and a crop consultant company. Eagle Seed products are sold to select vendors for both farmers (crop and animal) and plotters or direct to the public. Joyce’s dad (a top plant breeder) started the company about 40 years ago to improve ag and forage bean varieties through plant selection/breeding. Land/domestic animal use practices have changed and soybeans are used less today for a forage crop than in the past. Rising soy oil prices being the main reason for declining use of soybeans as forage. The recent food plot boom has rekindled forage bean popularity. High tonnage/quality silage is also popular with milk producers. Top producing dairy cows have extremely high nutrient requirements which Eagle forage soybeans meet. Brad and Joyce continue her father’s work to provide breeding improvements in soybeans. In a broker capacity, they have access to Monsanto varieties (genetics) or those of other companies. Yes, they also have access to the same varieties used in ‘Real World Soybeans’. I suspect those varieties are not included in Eagle mixes for sound science based reasons! Eagle forage soybeans are the ONLY Round-Up resistant forage soybean. RR genetics were purchased from Monsanto. The characteristics of new varieties (leaf size, browse tolerance, drought tolerance, forage quality, forage yield, etc) are proprietary genetic improvements of the crossbreeding efforts by Eagle Seed.


Actually as part of my side by side comparison we had samples analyzed of both the forage and Real World beans. We sampled mature leaves from both as well as the young tender ends of the stalk with the immature leaves that were just emerging as this is often the part of the plant that deer browse. I dont remember exact figures but in one case the forage beans had a very slight edge and in the other the Real World beans had a very slight edge. Through professional and independent analysis there was for all intents and purposes, no difference in the forage quality of one over the other.

From articles published in peer reviewed journals, whole plant protein averages about 28% in forage beans vs 24% in ag beans on a moisture free basis. Similar results should be observed in comparative tests. Part of the difference is due to larger leaf size and higher leaf;stem ratio in forage than ag beans (plant breeding) and the characteristic of leaf growth (indeterminate and semi-determinate vs determinate). For ag beans which plant growth terminates in a flower and(or) pod, the bottom will fall out of leaf CP and TDN as leaf nutrients are shuttled to the pods and new leaf production ceases. The semi-determinate LL and MM beans of Eagle do not terminate growth in a flower or pod and lush growth of new leaves continues after pod set/fill until a killing frost occurs.

Deer will generally select plant parts with the highest nutritive value first. Hopefully plants used for quality analysis in Don’s comparison were totally protected from browsing using a large exclusion cage? Elsewise, it is highly likely the most nutritive parts were removed be deer before sampling. New leaves at the top contain the highest quality and leaves near the bottom the lowest....leaf forage yield follows the opposite trend.

Leaves of either LL or MM (can’t remember which maybe both) have been documented in more than one case to contain over 40% CP! Those sampled at the Big Horn Ranch this summer during drought yielded similar results and gave high drought tolerance! 30+% leaf CP is a an realistic observation...well above reported deer protein requirements.

Does the video come free with a bag purchase or is it ‘sold separately’? ;)

yoderj@cox.net
12-06-2010, 05:33 PM
There is a lot of good information here. Thanks for posting it. It will take me a while to absorb it. Everyone one of us in a different situation and while we learn a lot from each other, not much applies completely across the board. I enjoy teasing out what is import and applicable to my situation from these spirited discussions.

For me, it is a slam dunk. I'm focused on the summer stress period in a high deer density area. My beans made it past the 8 week point, spent most of the summer naked, but didn't die until their purpose was served.

When I compare my results in terms of tonnage of high quality summer food produced in 2010 compared to previous years, it was night and day. Most of my warm season plots in the past were just overwhelmed with weeds. That drove me to a RR product because weeds could be managed with an inexpensive herbicide. My deer densities drove me to the a forage type bean that is resistant to browsing. The only game I could find was Eagle.

I'll worry about pods and such another day. Broadcasting winter rye through what was left of my beans gave me double duty use into the winter and added weed control

I just wanted to post a THANK YOU to everyone who contributed to my the thinking that got me this far and hopefully into an even better year next year!

EastALHunter
12-06-2010, 06:54 PM
Eagle also breeds and brokers ag bean varieties which are included in the Managers Mix......there is a northern and a southern version of managers mix. EAL...do you sell both?

Doug - sure do sell both. Sold a fair amount of the northern blend next year and will likely sell a lot more this year. I'm going to talk with Brad abut the shatter score of the ag beans in that mix and I would be willing to bet he had a very good shatter variety in there last year. In fact, I think I remember him talking about that.

Don brings up some good points about heavy ag soybean areas up north and I appreciate him bringing those points up. The Northern mix takes care of some of those issues in those areas but I can see the point of wanting 100% ag beans for pod production. What I can't understand is why someone would want to pay $50 per bag when RR1 ag beans are much cheaper. It goes back to my core value - I'll never sell you anything that I will not take the same dollar bills out of my wallet to buy for the same price myself.

I like you haven't seen Eagle forage seeds as small as BBs. I've busted more bags than I care to think about and seen a bunch of Eagle forage seeds. Only the Whitetail Thicket vining seeds are anywhere near that size and that's a low percentage of the mix.

RJ in LA
12-06-2010, 09:56 PM
This was my first year planting Eagle soybeans although I have planted ag soybeans in the past. I don't have anything to go on but my own observations but I was amazed at the ability of the Eagles Mgr's Mix to come back from extreme early browsing. We lost a couple of small fields to the deer even though plants as small as 6" tall kept trying to put on new growth. Hearing info from different regions and different sources helps us all in making our decision on which items we would like to try to plant. I had never heard of Eagle soybeans untill I joined this forum and even then it took 3 years for me to decide to try them. I was hoping they would make it in small plots (1 to 2 acres) without protection but on our property that is not the case. We bought a Gallagher solar fence this summer and now we know what will work on our property. I know some of you have had good luck without protection on your plots. Once again I would like to Thank all of you who are willing to give us your time and info to help the rest of us but you can never really know what will work for your particular property without trying it for your self.
Good Luck to all.

CaveCreek
12-06-2010, 10:48 PM
Forage bean seeds on average are smaller than ag types. Seeds per lb are printed on each bag for both ag and forage types (say 180,000 for forage vs 140,000 for ag). However, LL and MM seeds are rarely if ever BB size by any means. The vining type is the smallest of seeds and not even be that small (maybe a 200k/50 lb bean)....similar to Quail Haven.

Obviously, forage beans did not reach full pod fill in Don’s comparison for whatever reason. Were they planted when soil temp first reached 62F at a 2" depth per Eagle’s rec? Were soil nutrients optimum? Optimum temp/moisture? Did you sample at random and count seeds per lb? Again, planting time and growing conditions are most critical when planting late maturing beans in northern latitudes with limited growing degree days and high potential for early killing frost.

Information Brad was kind enough to provide to me (way back early or before the season)...

Was that seed cts per lb for their three forage beans, 2,900, 3200, and 5100.
The last being the vining type, comparable to Quail Haven... as Gallow mentions.

Do the math and that equates to 145,000, 160,000, and 255,000 seed ct per 50 lb sx. Aside from the vining variety (which has a much different purpose form Ag beans)...

The bean sizes seem to be pretty well in line with that of Ag bean. The neat thing though, for anyone into looking at planting populations, is that the smaller seeded varieties/forages also "generally" require less lbs of seed per acre.

Gallow, thanks for the post... and the time spent gathering and displaying the information into this, collective, informative post.

CaveCreek
12-06-2010, 10:51 PM
East Al,

Lets see those photo's you've talked about. :D

EastALHunter
12-06-2010, 11:04 PM
East Al,

Lets see those photo's you've talked about. :D

Has rang most of the day which bodes well for 2011 and I hope is a good sign for the economy. One call was a guy that told me a customer killed a 160 class middle GA deer that might be 3.5 years old - for sure no older than 4.5. Pretty exceptional deer for middle GA with no ag crops within 100 miles. Another customer 2 counties over (still 80 miles from ag) killed a 164" and his neighbor killed a 172" just 20 yards off his property. Pretty dang good year for my folks in middle GA.

I've got some photos on my camera just haven't had the time to upload yet. They are coming ;)

CaveCreek
12-06-2010, 11:21 PM
Sweet! Would still love to see them burgundy bean photo's as well. ;)

Pro-active business is the key to Stimulation of one's own personal economy. Congrats.

dgallow
12-06-2010, 11:57 PM
Doug - sure do sell both. Sold a fair amount of the northern blend next year and will likely sell a lot more this year. I'm going to talk with Brad abut the shatter score of the ag beans in that mix and I would be willing to bet he had a very good shatter variety in there last year. In fact, I think I remember him talking about that.

Yes, last fall was extremely wet and cool in the Delta. Many ag beans were not harvested until January, but I don't recall any mass reports of shatter problems. Shatter score in variety tests is normally determined right before normal harvest rather than in March which is the gest of what Don is inferring but not a common problem in this region. There are some environmental conditions which can enhance shatter and planting a maturinty way outside of it's adaption range may also enchace shatter. A rather moot point here so I don't pay much attention to the details. For commercial ag, shatter in beans is highly selected against in plant breeding programs...most growers are aware of that emphasis.

Don brings up some good points about heavy ag soybean areas up north and I appreciate him bringing those points up. The Northern mix takes care of some of those issues in those areas but I can see the point of wanting 100% ag beans for pod production. What I can't understand is why someone would want to pay $50 per bag when RR1 ag beans are much cheaper. It goes back to my core value - I'll never sell you anything that I will not take the same dollar bills out of my wallet to buy for the same price myself.

To Don's credit, each of the varieties in his mix were individually packaged last year inside of one 50 lb bag. Presume they will be offered that way this year too. At least you know exactly what is purchased and sweat equity went into it. Most seed sellers won't give that much effort. Futher, Don's time and effort to select and put together a mix is a cost. Time is worth something and his price seems reasonable considering such! It could be much worse, like Bio-something selling wheat + 0.5% berseem for $20 a bag...that just isn't right at all!

I like you haven't seen Eagle forage seeds as small as BBs. I've busted more bags than I care to think about and seen a bunch of Eagle forage seeds. Only the Whitetail Thicket vining seeds are anywhere near that size and that's a low percentage of the mix.

If plants are severely defoliated or stressed during pod fill then a small bean or none at all is possible. Nutrients for the bean come from reserves stored in the leaf. If the leaves are gone, then nothing remains for developing beans. For plants this summer which were completely defoliated by deer and flash drought leaving only a green stem we had some BB sizes. I was honestly surprised the plants recovered at all from that.....a green stem 4' tall isn't a great scenario to restart the engines! Late planting and and(or) early frost can do the same thing. It just boils down to too much stress or leaf death at the absolute wrong time....neither ag nor forage beans are immune.

In agreement with you, seed sizes in the Eagle Mix or LL bags we received were uniform in size. Seed certification requires some stringent sorting and selection to ensure viable seed....that equip is costly and precise...inspectors will shut you down if things are out of spec. Too much equity in the Eagle name to allow a substandard seed sale.



Good luck with your endeavors! :)

Don Higgins
12-07-2010, 10:44 AM
Does the video come free with a bag purchase or is it ‘sold separately’? ;)

Most of your posts just seem to be underhanded jabs at anything I have posted on the subject; one which I had decided not to post on again until I had the video of the test ready for viewing. To answer your question though, the video will be online for anyone to see ... FOR FREE!!!!:eek: I will make sure that everyone here knows when and where it can be seen.:)


Just one final point for those who may be interested - "WHO" is encouraging you to not take their word for it but to instead do your own side by side test to see what works best for your specific situation and "WHO" gives the "other" soybean product its due credit in certain regions and situations??? ........... and on the other hand "WHO" in encouraging you to not do a side by side but instead to buy a certain product based on their word or other tests or information??? and "WHO" is saying well maybe a combination of both products is best for you???? (couldnt have you soley using the other guys product) Seems pretty clear to me "who" wants you to be successful and "who" wants to make a sale. I promise you my reputation is not for sale at any price, let alone the price of a few bags of beans. I know for certain which soybean works best on my place and I want to share that with others. If you try both products and the forage beans work best for you, then great. I wish you the best and wont look down on you in any way. You are still welcome to stop by and visit at shows or send me emails or whatever. I want you to get as much from your property and whitetail hunting as I do, beans or no beans.:)

TrademarkTexan
12-07-2010, 12:51 PM
I must have missed the other thread that is referred to, but I just want to say that ALL information is productive and appreciated, as well as ALL discourse about the subject, as long as it doesn't degrade into an internet shouting match.

We're all adults here and we can all read between the lines, so to speak, on these topics. I appreciate the open discussions...thanks to all for taking time to post your thoughts.

EastALHunter
12-07-2010, 07:16 PM
Good luck with your endeavors! :)

it's just that some folks get branded as having invested sweat equity while others get called over-pricers by the watchdog group on here. I found it interesting that a "habitat guy" from the midwest gets into the sweat equity business and it's hands off but others like Brad Doyle get attacked by the watchdog group. No offense to Don who I have no doubt has sweat equity in his products but I would wager that the sweat Brad has put into his products could float a battleship. Just keeping everybody on the same page. ;)

I've learned a lot from Don already and will continue to pay attention to things he has to say. That way maybe some folks up north will give me some validity :D

dgallow
12-07-2010, 09:11 PM
Most of your posts just seem to be underhanded jabs at anything I have posted on the subject; one which I had decided not to post on again until I had the video of the test ready for viewing. To answer your question though, the video will be online for anyone to see ... FOR FREE!!!!:eek: I will make sure that everyone here knows when and where it can be seen.:)

Don,

I don't have a problem apologizing for jabs if you don't have a problem doing the same for jabs directed at Eagle. I can read and it goes both ways! Cross support of each product honestly is about even...please see by rebuttal to EAL inre your pricing for example!

The problem I have lies in the test inself, the way it is being conducted, and the 'mistery' like aura when it is mentioned here! I have been around research daily for over 20yrs and fully understand how to conduct a test to yield unbiased results in a peer reviewed atmosphere from which valid conclusions can be drawn. I keep reading these 'update' comments like BB size beans, for example, and know that something went wrong in your test for that to be normal with a properly/timely planted forage bean. Video of an improper test really won't prove anything and that is my point through a very long road of dissertation in several threads. Like yourself, Stan Potts is a well respected mid-west trophy white-tail hunter and his direct endorsement of Eagle beans is pretty neat, "Best soybeans I've ever planted!"....quite a different tone than you have presented! Nothing personal against you or your enterprises!

Rather than drag the integrity of your enterprise and Brad's across public domain why don't we just settle this via email or PM. I believe there is considerable misunderstanding by both parties. I have some questions in the long thread above which your answers will help clarify and better my understanding of your product. Hopefully we can get to the point of a hand shake and go on about things. Much funner things I'd like to discuss...that is a fact!

Thanks for your time and efforts,
Doug

CaveCreek
12-07-2010, 10:30 PM
Don,

I'll go ahead and apologize for myself and any others that may have caused you some heartburn...

But, If you really follow the flow of the other thread, and especially the initial post, and question...

Most of us were just throwing out unbiased courteous advice Applicable across the U.S.

In the initial post, there was no mention of whether the Soy's were desired for the Forage, Grain, or both...

and hence my post discussed those OPTIONS, rather than making some off hip Opinion of my own.

Also keep in mind that the poster IS from Northern Kentucky.

Now that said, then several of us get chastized for Not having applicable advice, based on location. I'm sorry, but unless you know any of us....Who has really taken jabs??? :confused:

Most of us offered options and PERSONAL OBSERVATIONS for our locations,

but you rather, off the bat OFFERED your product, and assumed that Grain was the Ultimate desired goal. Even though that had not bean stated. And seemed to insist that we should focus on what goes on in the Midwest. :confused:

Also you blanketly ignored or refuted some of the POSSIBLE advantages of the forage bean, Mostly by virtue, still, that the GRAIN was the goal.

Why such a strong appeal on the right SOY's for the Midwest, when the man with the question, was not from there? And therefore whose advice was really most applicable?

Lastly, Man if you are selling something, there really is no reason to engage a thread into a Debate, concerning your own product.

At least not without expecting to catch some undesired comments, at the very least.

No apology necessary (to me), but man... but keep track of the initial topic, before really diving in.

You did make a rather strong statement in Concern to Eagle's credibility (i.e. a foodplot company?). Low and behold, as has been pointed out,THEY sell to us, but THEY are not. Most of us already knew that.

We all appreciate your posts, so please don't lose sight of that. Happy Hunting!

dgallow
12-10-2010, 04:42 PM
In reply to EAL:

Eagle is working on getting group 2 forage beans to market. It's coming - and they will produce a bunch more pods than ag beans.

Eagle is breeding some earlier maturing forage types but maturity is unknown at this time. That will be a very good thing for plotters and mangers in the northern tier, but will likely take several generations until a good variety(s) and sufficient seed are offered for public sale. Exact maturity won't be known until new varieties are entered into tests at several sites and compared to 'check varieties' of known maturity. That is how maturity (many other traits too) is determined, + or - days relative to 'known maturity checks'. Dry bean yield won't be reported until the averages across sites are determined. I would hate to bet a steak dinner on yield vs ag types at this point....patience EAL! :D

US soy variety testing is very extensive and thorough. Traits like seed size, lodging score, shatter, maturity, protein content, oil content, etc are determined at the test sites so farmers/brokers/cosultants have a reasonable degree of certainty how a variety will perform in the field.

The USDA pubically compiles annual soy variety testing and all of that is a 'search and click' procedure.....most states do the same thing!

THE UNIFORM SOYBEAN TESTS NORTHERN REGION 2009 (Group 00 to III)

http://www.btny.purdue.edu/Pubs/USDA/2009UniformTestReport.pdf

and UNIFORM SOYBEAN TESTS SOUTHERN STATES 2009 (Group IV plus).

http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/64021500/UniformSoybeanTests/2009SoyBook.pdf

Those links should answer most questions folks have about soy varieties and testing! ;)

pcfer
12-14-2010, 04:35 PM
I missed the previous post also. I'm not a seed guy or a farmer. I planted two fields in Eagle beans and corn back in May. Each field is approximately 10 acres. We had a horrible seed bed (long story as to why) and I was not very confident that we would produce much of anything. We actually had to broadcast the two together and drag them in some very clumpy (grass and dirt) fields. We did the best we could with what we had at the time. I posted some pics on a thread earlier in the year of the UNBELIEVABLE results. Our beans ended up 6-7 feet tall with an average of 200-300 pods per plant with each pod having 3-4 beans. The beans are about the size of a black-eyed pea and the corn did great also. As I mentioned, I don't have a fraction of the knowledge many of you do. I work in mouths on teeth for a living and rely on people with appropriate information to help me make decisions on where to spend my time and money when it comes to planting. I purchased my seed through Don (East AL Hunter) and followed his instructions the best I could with what I had. Every expectation I had was blown away and the results were just like he described. You guys are sharp and all have valid points. Thanks to Don and all of you for carrying on an informed debate that really makes me even more amazed with the results I got for the conditions in which I planted.