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QDMAMAN
07-20-2010, 11:11 AM
Would any one here spend $500.00 for you and a friend to tour a well managed property for one day, personally guided by the land owner/manager?
This property is in the mid west and very commercialized with sponsors and is owned by a prominent member/contributor to the QDMA.

Big T

MDuffy
07-20-2010, 11:13 AM
I will let you tour my property for $250....:D ;) :p :cool:

fiveyear
07-20-2010, 11:16 AM
What do I get for it? Dom Perignon with the Filet Mignon Lunch!

You would think somebody in the qdma would want to share the info. to help the spread of QDM. I have heard of worse.

THE, LLC
07-20-2010, 11:19 AM
Not in a million years. :eek:

kansas-andres
07-20-2010, 11:24 AM
Nope :) I would never pay to "Just" tour someones hunting land.

fiveyear
07-20-2010, 11:27 AM
That is sort of like people in the Fla. Keys charging $150.00 to take people snorkeling on the reef. Heck its a state park and you can go there for free.

So I gas up the boat $150.00(1/3-1/2 for the trip)
Get Ice 20 lbs.-$5.00
Gatorade-$5.00
Water -$3.00
Fried Chicken-$8.00
Cut Fruit-$10.00
I have my dive gear so we won't count that $250.00
Sunscreen-$7.00
Shades hat and swimwear-Won't count that $275.00 (I'll use it again)
Other incidentalsOil, fresh water, soap to clean boat, night stay, etc.

Man, where can I book that trip????:D

WvWTAddict
07-20-2010, 11:28 AM
Wow! For just a tour?!?! Absolutely not! You would think any true qdma member would be willing to share the info. Thats nuts!

QDMAMAN
07-20-2010, 11:30 AM
That is sort of like people in the Fla. Keys charging $150.00 to take people snorkeling on the reef. Heck its a state park and you can go there for free.

fiveyear,
This is a PRIVATE tract.

Big T

QDMAMAN
07-20-2010, 11:31 AM
I will let you tour my property for $250....

That wasn't an option.;)

MDuffy
07-20-2010, 11:37 AM
That wasn't an option.;)


Honestly, it depends on what I was trying to get out of it?

I could claim most of what this person is claiming pretty easy:

1. Well managed
2. Guided by the landowner/manager
3. Midwest
4. Commercialized(not really, but we do sell hunts commercially)
5. Sponsors
6. I'm a QDMA member, but not a prominent one.:)
7. I definitely contribute to QDMA, not much to this forum, but to QDMA.

I would never charge anyone to "tour" my property, but that isn't the question at hand.

QDMAMAN
07-20-2010, 11:54 AM
What if it was Lee and Tiff, Al Brothers, or Dr. Grant Woods?

Big T

kansas-andres
07-20-2010, 11:59 AM
What if it was Lee and Tiff, Al Brothers, or Dr. Grant Woods?

Big T


If It was just Tiffany, Yes It would be worth It

AaronS
07-20-2010, 12:04 PM
Tour, no. Hunt, yes.

QDMAMAN
07-20-2010, 12:05 PM
What do I get for it? Dom Perignon with the Filet Mignon Lunch!


Here's what you get and it's $500.00 for up to 3 people.

Food Plot Establishment and Maintenance: The equipment we use, the crops we have found to work, and the fertilizer types and amounts to produce deer with antlers way better than average for our neighborhood

Trail Camera Use for Scouting and Herd Monitoring: We use trail cameras to pattern mature bucks and determine the herd’s adult sex ratio, buck age structure, average size of bucks, etc. (We also use them for turkey scouting)

Tree Stand Placement and Hunting Techniques: The where, when, and how in achieving hunting success

Road Construction & Maintenance: Techniques we use to minimize erosion and reduce costs associated with road maintenance

Prescribed Fire: When, why, and how – the tools we use to promote safety and control while minimizing cost

Timber Management: How to implement timber management with wildlife habitat improvement as the primary objective for timber management

Water Resources: The how, where and why of pond construction and creek maintenance/improvement

…Most everything deer and turkey hunting and management

Big T

BSK_
07-20-2010, 12:08 PM
QDMAMAN,

You can find all that information in Quality Whitetails--and from a broader range of sources--simply for the price of a QDMA membership.

Thump1
07-20-2010, 12:09 PM
I have difficulty believing I would get my moneys worth from a tour. I believe I would learn more, of interest to me, from of Grant than from T&L. Don't know the Al bros.

What is the deer research place in rural NY? Seems like they offer tours but can't remember the name or price.

QDMAMAN
07-20-2010, 12:12 PM
QDMAMAN,

You can find all that information in Quality Whitetails--and from a broader range of sources--simply for the price of a QDMA membership.


I may or may not agree. The written word leaves too much to the imagination for some people.
For instance Brian, I would consider a day in the field with you worth much more than a single year membership to the QDMA however, I feel my continued support of the QDMA is more important than my individual wants/needs.

Big T

QDMAMAN
07-20-2010, 12:14 PM
What is the deer research place in rural NY? Seems like they offer tours but can't remember the name or price.

Neil Dougherty's?

E_308
07-20-2010, 12:16 PM
I have difficulty believing I would get my moneys worth from a tour. I believe I would learn more, of interest to me, from of Grant than from T&L. Don't know the Al bros.

What is the deer research place in rural NY? Seems like they offer tours but can't remember the name or price.

If I remember right Grant Woods charges alot more than $500. Having heard him speak it might be worth it but I kind of like to do the research on here then implement what I have time for.

QDMAMAN
07-20-2010, 12:20 PM
How many here, after paying for the tour, would feel compelled to submit videos and pics of your property in order to get the tour guide, and his pro staff, to come and shoot bucks off of YOUR property?


"How can I get _________ to hunt at my place?

_____ and the rest of the Team love to see different properties and hunt with folks that like to grow deer! However, we primarily hunt our property or other properties we manage. This allows us to learn more about those herds. To invite us to hunt with you during the few days each year we hunt “new” turf, send us a video and/or pictures showing your turf."


Big T

UFi911
07-20-2010, 12:22 PM
No way no how. I'd never pay that for a tour, regardless of the property or person.

Just my .02

-John

QDMAMAN
07-20-2010, 12:25 PM
If I remember right Grant Woods charges alot more than $500. Having heard him speak it might be worth it ...


There are several consultants out there that "seal the deal" after a speaking engagement.
I have discovered that some people's "preconceived notions" don't serve their interests very well... I know I'm guilty.:(

Big T

Marty Edwards
07-20-2010, 12:30 PM
So the gig is this... First, I pay $500 to go tour a chunk of ground for a day, then, I get the priveledge (if I'm the lucky winner) to let this team of professionals come and shoot bucks off my property???

Where do I sign up for that?

You gotta be kidding me.

QDMAMAN
07-20-2010, 12:37 PM
Where do I sign up for that?

Well...since you asked.:)

http://www.growingdeer.tv/view/our-place/

The application to have them hunt is in the FAQ section of the site.

Big T

Marty Edwards
07-20-2010, 12:41 PM
Dr. Woods has a deal coming up in August that is less than half that amount and it's a two day deal...and yes I know where the above quote came from regarding "send us photo's/video of your property"

QDMAMAN
07-20-2010, 12:44 PM
I hope that by revealing the source, that WvWTAddict and five year don't think less of the good Dr.

So...this begs another question. Should QDMA members, regardless of their profession, feel compelled to give free information to fellow QDMA members? Or should the pros be content to make their money from their sponsors selling beans, chainsaws, muck boots, etc.?

Big T

QDMAMAN
07-20-2010, 12:46 PM
Dr. Woods has a deal coming up in August that is less than half that amount and it's a two day deal...and yes I know where the above quote came from regarding "send us photo's/video of your property"


The lower price isn't an exclusive tour for up to 3 people. Many things are cheaper to the masses and, by design, are intended to promote other services.

Big T

Alpha Doe
07-20-2010, 12:51 PM
Just a couple of things that we have learned...

1) It is hard to take ideas from one property and impliment it on your property.

2) Many of these things that are stated have completely different seasons. Food plot season is different than prescribed fire and TSI. So the person giving the tour would be doing alot of "if I was going to do a prescribed fire here, I would..." Or "if I was going to leave a standing corn plot here, I would..."

So, it seems that it would just be a general overall touch on subjects without getting in depth. Just like the food plot section...the equipment we use may not be the same equipment that someone else uses. I want to know how you would use the equipment that we use. The crop selections that work for us, may not work for someone else. Fertilizer requirements are site specific and that is what soil tests are for. If the the owner has sponsors...they are more than likely food plot sponsors. I wouldn't be interested in hearing about WI or Biologic food plots and how awesome they are because they are specifically designed for deer.

So, no I would not spend the money to learn things that can be learned on this site. But, I would have when I was young and gullible (last year!). We used to fall for "all" those things that made promises to get us ahead of the curve.

QDMAMAN
07-20-2010, 12:56 PM
We used to fall for "all" those things that made promises to get us ahead of the curve.


If Grant was freely giving this information on this forum would you implement any of his offerings?
Or better, yet will you visit his site to get what ever free info is offered?

Big T

Marty Edwards
07-20-2010, 01:02 PM
We all learn differently. As has been stated previously, some may gleen much from a subscription to a magazine (which costs $) or purchasing a how-to book (which costs $). Others may learn more by paying tuition and then having the opportunity to have an exchange, question & answers, hands on experience, to be physically engaged in the process (which costs $).

I cannot fault Dr. Woods nor any of the MANY others who charge "tuition" to come and learn...is this notion somehow remarkably different than QDMA's Deer Steward Program? It doesn't seem so.

Dr. Woods shares information freely on his growing deer website. That said, he also, obviously, has an entrepreneurial side to his business as well. Capitalism is good, I see nothing wrong with it at all. Nor do I see anything wrong with the MANY others who charge for their "boot camps" etc. Caveat Emptor or "Let the buyer beware". Each must decide if the best bang for their educational dollar is the written word, or tuiton.

The above simply represents my opinion.

QDMAMAN
07-20-2010, 01:06 PM
We all learn differently. As has been stated previously, some may gleen much from a subscription to a magazine (which costs $) or purchasing a how-to book (which costs $). Others may learn more by paying tuition and then having the opportunity to have an exchange, question & answers, hands on experience, to be physically engaged in the process (which costs $).

I cannot fault Dr. Woods nor any of the MANY others who charge "tuition" to come and learn...is this notion somehow remarkably different than QDMA's Deer Steward Program? It doesn't seem so.

Dr. Woods shares information freely on his growing deer website. That said, he also, obviously, has an entrepreneurial side to his business as well. Capitalism is good, I see nothing wrong with it at all. Nor do I see anything wrong with the MANY others who charge for their "boot camps" etc. Caveat Emptor or "Let the buyer beware". Each must decide if the best bang for their educational dollar is the written word, or tuiton.

The above simply represents my opinion.

Well said.
So would you invite him to come and kill your bucks?:D

Alpha Doe
07-20-2010, 01:08 PM
So, no I would not spend the money to learn things that can be learned on this site

Yes, I would and do implement things that I learn on this site. I really don't care who they are from, if I feel it is something that will help us I don't say well smsmith posted how to plant trees and I don't like him so I'm not going to do anything he says.

But I don't understand...there is a difference between paying $500.00 and free.

Marty Edwards
07-20-2010, 01:09 PM
I'm thinkin' a fella has to draw the line somewhere;)

BSK_
07-20-2010, 01:13 PM
So...this begs another question. Should QDMA members, regardless of their profession, feel compelled to give free information to fellow QDMA members? Or should the pros be content to make their money from their sponsors selling beans, chainsaws, muck boots, etc.?


The QDMA started as an association of wildlife professionals who wanted to educate hunters on the biological principles of deer management. It has turned into a lot more since its humble beginnings, but is it still--first and foremost--an educational organization.

Now should members/leaders feel compelled to share information? I don't know about that. But I wouldn't write articles for Quality Whitetails or participate in this site if I didn't want to share and educate.

BSK_
07-20-2010, 01:15 PM
Excellent post Marty.

QDMAMAN
07-20-2010, 01:25 PM
...there is a difference between paying $500.00 and free.


There's also a difference between free, and cookies and deer sausage.:):D

WesternNY
07-20-2010, 01:31 PM
Very well said Marty!

Neil and Craig Dougherty charge $50 a person for a group tour of there property in my neck of the woods.

I want to go one of these days, and 50 is reasonable... 500 no way.

BSK_
07-20-2010, 01:34 PM
Here's my take QDMAMAN:

Grant's property is very unique it it's geography, terrain and habitat. In addition, he has transformed that property from being a virtual "deer desert" to an astoundingly productive deer Mecca. I know that because I used to work on his property when he first bought it, and I know what he's turned it into (with an unimaginable amount of hard work).

As Alpha Doe pointed out, not all techniques are transferrable from one geographic area to the next. On the other hand, some principles are fairly universal. Now some people can take theory and principle and apply it to another, different situation. Others can't. Some want a "professional" to tell them exactly where they should create this or that habitat on their property. If you can transfer principle from situation to situation, you would probably benefit from a tour of an intensively managed property.

In addition, if your land suffers from any of the problems Grant's originally did: steep terrain, very poor soils, primarily hardwoods, homogenous or unproductive habitat, etc. then I think you would benefit GREATLY from what you would see on his place. But if your land is flat agricultural land, probably not so much.

Dogwood
07-20-2010, 01:36 PM
So would you invite him to come and kill your bucks?:D

When I finally meet Dr. Woods, face to face, I will extend the invite, personally. I'd love to have him as a guest on my property. Surely, I'd learn some things, just by spending a little time in his presence. I'm not interested, however, in having a "team" of people come to hunt my place (not that it's big enough).
Would I pay to take the tour..? Not anytime soon. I'll save my money for the Deer Stewardship class tuition, instead.;)
I wouldn't judge anyone that decides to buy a ticket to the "Proving Grounds", though. To each their own...

BSK_
07-20-2010, 01:54 PM
This isn't meant as support or denial of anything posted on this thread--just a question: What is knowledge worth to you? What is it worth in dollars?

Now everyone wants to get as much quality knowledge as possible as cheaply as possible, but for proven knowledge, what are you willing to pay?

I've observed people who realized what they need to know, and paid what they felt was necessary to acquire that knowledge. Then again, I've watched other people drop unspeakable amounts of money on hunting equipment but baulk at paying for the very knowledge that would determine their success with all that expensive equipment.

Then again, I know people who find that learning what they need to know all on their own is a large part of the enjoyment with the process.

To each, their own.

BSK_
07-20-2010, 01:56 PM
So would you invite him to come and kill your bucks?:D

Grant couldn't kill one of my bucks even if it was mounting him at the time. ;)

Actually, Grant is a very accomplished hunter.

But would I let someone else come and kill the bucks I've been working to attract and grow for years? Not a chance!

lone cedar farm
07-20-2010, 01:59 PM
NO....I would not! I do think If I were too it would be Dr. Woods though he offers lots of free advice on his videos with a little humor added in and I value his opinion. :)

Swamp_Ghost
07-20-2010, 02:06 PM
Would any one here spend $500.00 for you and a friend to tour a well managed property for one day, personally guided by the land owner/manager?
This property is in the mid west and very commercialized with sponsors and is owned by a prominent member/contributor to the QDMA.

Big T

Yes, even though some of the things may or may not be able to be implemented on my property. Nothing like seeing things first hand.

banc123
07-20-2010, 07:21 PM
I figured it was the proving grounds from the start. I've tried to figure out the economics of the proving grounds and can't figure out how he does it. Grant and folks like BSK (last time I checked) have an unusual task that the rest of us don't have. They have to make a living in the consulting and deer management business, not just give free advise to QDMA members. Making a living is hard enough, maintenance and upkeep of a 1,800 acre (I think thats what it is) place like that adds another dimension.

If the proving grounds was within driving distance, split between 2 or 3 friends thats not that unreasonable for the potential to learn and for the experience of seeing it. People spend that and more all the time for entertainment and experiences. Its free choice.

Dr. Woods is first class all the way around, supporting QMDA, making a living and maintaining a proving grounds can all fit together.

smsmith
07-20-2010, 07:23 PM
Not in a million years. :eek:

Seconded. Unless there's more to it than a simple tour - no way. Even more than a simple tour - 99% probably not.

MDuffy
07-20-2010, 09:13 PM
Why didn't you just say:

"Why is it ok for Grant Woods to charge someone $500 to come to his property and not ok for Tony LaPratt to do the same?"

That is the point of this thread is it not????:rolleyes:

QDMAMAN,

GIVE IT A REST!!! THERE ARE PEOPLE HERE WHO LOVE TONY AND THERE ARE PEOPLE HERE WHO DON'T(and some who couldn't care less...ME). JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER HUNTING FORUM OUT THERE.

PLEASE LET THIS DOG LAY!!

I wish I knew how to put that emoticon on here I see on Archerytalk sometimes, it's great....it's a guy beating a dead horse..LOL

Alpha Doe
07-20-2010, 09:42 PM
Will this work Matt?

http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu51/Imatreehugger/smile/deadhorse.gif

MDuffy
07-20-2010, 09:45 PM
Will this work Matt?

http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu51/Imatreehugger/smile/deadhorse.gif

Shelly, you have to teach me how to do that.:D

banc123
07-20-2010, 09:49 PM
Too much ?

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj72/MWSPHOTO/deadhorse.gif

Alpha Doe
07-20-2010, 10:01 PM
maybe this one...

http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu51/Imatreehugger/smile/happy1.gif

They are kinda like old friends! http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu51/Imatreehugger/smile/hide.gif

Whitetail Jiu-Jitsu
07-20-2010, 10:15 PM
Would any one here spend $500.00 for you and a friend to tour a well managed property for one day, personally guided by the land owner/manager?
This property is in the mid west and very commercialized with sponsors and is owned by a prominent member/contributor to the QDMA.

Big T

No. I am always willing to take advice and loving reading as many articles on all aspects of wildlife management as I can but one of my favorite parts of private land management is the 'do it yourself' aspect. I feel some of that is lost if I were to pay a 'pro' to tour their land. If someone invited me to their property to talk management however, I consider that different.

I have you beat though. I talked to a prominent member of QDMA who also contributes to other magazines and they wanted $1500 for a visit. I never asked with the intention of paying.

cadizdeer1
07-20-2010, 10:19 PM
$500 for 3 people really isnt that outrageous, Grants property is a huge piece of just mediocre Ozark ground that as been transformed into property that few can rival. Id much rather tour Grants property that Tony Lapratts any day.

tncraig75
07-20-2010, 10:19 PM
Matt, may I drive up and tour the Country Lodge for free? Hope you have some forks for my Steak in a Bag. :D I'll save my $500 and stay home and scout some more, run my chainsaw, and help anyone I can understand what QDMA is about. Not everybody cares about a monster buck, its part of what comes along with habitat management.

MDuffy
07-20-2010, 10:28 PM
Matt, may I drive up and tour the Country Lodge for free? Hope you have some forks for my Steak in a Bag. :D


You are absolutely welcome to come any time, well any time outside of hunting season!:D

And we do have nice forks....:cool:

Thayer.qdma
07-20-2010, 10:33 PM
Grant was our first banquet presenter many years ago.

He came in at a very reasonable price and gave the audience their money's worth. He spoke with everyone and signed what they wanted signed. He is in this for the education, the promotion of proper deer management, and for a living. He has given way more to QDM than most of us will ever be able to give back.

Grant has managed acreages in the south, midwest, and the north, but yet he chooses to manage ground in the Ozarks. I think the man is a bit off his rocker. If you have ground that isn't the most conducive to crops, succulent ground cover, or has less than one bucket of dirt per acre...then his program might be for you. Even if you have good ground, Grant will teach you something you didn't know....guaranteed.

BSK will be my all time favorite speaker at our banquets and he is more than welcome to be our 7th annual speaker. He provides tons of great info for your property and will try to shake every attendee's hand in the process.

Kudo's Bryan, we all give Grant trouble from time to time, but he should be appreciated too!

MDuffy
07-20-2010, 10:37 PM
Grant was our first banquet presenter many years ago.

He came in at a very reasonable price and gave the audience their money's worth. He spoke with everyone and signed what they wanted signed. He is in this for the education, the promotion of proper deer management, and for a living. He has given way more to QDM than most of us will ever be able to give back.

Grant has managed acreages in the south, midwest, and the north, but yet he chooses to manage ground in the Ozarks. I think the man is a bit off his rocker. If you have ground that isn't the most conducive to crops, succulent ground cover, or has less than one bucket of dirt per acre...then his program might be for you. Even if you have good ground, Grant will teach you something you didn't know....guaranteed.

BSK will be my all time favorite speaker at our banquets and he is more than welcome to be our 7th annual speaker. He provides tons of great info for your property and will try to shake every attendee's hand in the process.

Kudo's Bryan, we all give Grant trouble from time to time, but he should be appreciated too!

Great post Thayer, but Grant Woods isn't the real subject of this thread.:rolleyes:

DeltaDog
07-20-2010, 10:40 PM
Okay, well it looks like, as usual, I got here a little too late... but, yeah, I might pay it, if I thought I was going to see something, first-hand, that I might learn from. I'd probably have to see some posts on here that made me want to know what it is that makes that property so unique.
I mean, as far as I know, Mr. LaPratt has never posted anything on this board, but there's enough controversy on here, and other sites, that make me curious, at least.

BSK is "in the business." Given the opportunity, I'd probably go look at his place, just to get some ideas for my own. I think we've got a pretty good place, that is very attractive to deer; our place won't hold deer, permanently, primarily because 99% of our place floods, usually at least once a year, sometimes more. And no one, I don't think, is going to show me "How to teach your deer to tread water." But I might get some good ideas... :D
Someone I've never heard of, though? Not likely...

I don't have a problem with people who are in the consulting business, and can make a living out of teaching others to do what they have not been able to do. Hey, if I could make the same living catfishing on the Mississippi River, as I do exploring for oil and gas, that's what I would be doing! But, there are some who can, and do. A lot of people hire a guide to take them somewhere, and coach them through killing a big buck / catching a big fish, etc... Somewhere deep down inside them, those people are likely thinking they're gonna learn some secret, or find some hot-spot, or whatever.
Paying a consultant is no different than that.

How much does the Deer Stewardship Course cost? $700? $1000? Define, for me, the difference.
Am I going to learn something in that course that isn't part of "public knowledge?" NO.
Still, though, I WOULD like to take the course, someday. Why, because all of that information that is "public" knowledge, is condensed into a short course. So, I would be paying QDMA for gathering all of that knowledge up, and putting it into a format that was readily available to me...

whew!

I like the dead horse emoticons, too! Thanks; I had to save them!
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff226/dudlbugr/deadhorse.gif

ureyes
07-20-2010, 11:27 PM
I wouldn't pay any bum a single dollar to tell me anything about deer.

The price of Dr. watchyamacallit's tour is ridiculous, the price for whatever TL has going is also ridiculous.

Not sure how you you could have a conscious and charge folks that kinda money to walk your place. I don't care what kinda desert it was before.

I've never heard anything from Woody that was revolutionary might have heard something different from TL but its all been hear-say cause I've never heard the guy say zhit.

These guys making big money off deer haven't impressed me one bit. Wouldn't give any of them even one of my hard earned dollars for thier superior knowledge!

auarchery
07-20-2010, 11:54 PM
Well I was going to stay out of this, oh well! lol

IF, I was going to pay to "tour" a consultants property it would be Grant Woods. The main reason is because he does offer FREE advise and contribute to QDM in one way or the other for free. I get his weekly emails from his website on his videos and absolutely love them. Is it because it is ground breaking information, no, its because I love to hear anything about whitetail management and it's free. I have been to the Convention for 4 yrs now, and I can honestly say I look forward to hearing Grant the most, although I enjoy all the speakers (except one that spoke in Chatanooga a few years ago!).

That to me is the main difference between Grant and the one we don't speak of. I can actually relate to Grant because I have seen him speak and read his theories about management...they aren't exactly a secret!

I don't have one problem with either one of them making a profit, they have to make a living too!

bruiser73
07-21-2010, 12:09 AM
Why didn't you just say:

"Why is it ok for Grant Woods to charge someone $500 to come to his property and not ok for Tony LaPratt to do the same?"

That is the point of this thread is it not????:rolleyes:

QDMAMAN,

GIVE IT A REST!!! THERE ARE PEOPLE HERE WHO LOVE TONY AND THERE ARE PEOPLE HERE WHO DON'T(and some who couldn't care less...ME). JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER HUNTING FORUM OUT THERE.

PLEASE LET THIS DOG LAY!!

I wish I knew how to put that emoticon on here I see on Archerytalk sometimes, it's great....it's a guy beating a dead horse..LOL

I've only been on this board for a few weeks and you talk about this Tony LaPratt fella more than anybody else!!! You seem to CARE THE MOST about about him. You seem to be the one killing the horses in the first place :rolleyes:

bruiser73
07-21-2010, 12:16 AM
Paying someone $500 to tour their property seems senseless unless they are within a 50 mile radius of YOUR place and they are just getting results that you are not getting. If they have the secret ingredient that can have a direct impact on your place.

Lots of things will work on their place that simply won't on yours, except for the same basic principles that have recently become common knowledge or at least very accessible.

Paying someone to hunt on my place....hmmmm:

If it's a marketing tactic for me and I will see significant return on my investment, then sure. Other than that probably not.

I'm not against people using their expertise and pouplarity to make money, God Bless America, but that's like Blue Bell paying me to eat their ice cream just because I love it so much.

skin_dog1
07-21-2010, 02:23 AM
The way I look at it is simple. You have lots of different types of people with different levels of income. If I were fortunate enough to own my own land and could afford to, I'd love to hire someone to come in and turn it into a deer mecca. I don't and can't so I won't.

If I owned land but couldn't afford to have someone to do it for me then I'd definately consider this. It seems to me like a way to gain alot of info in a short time.

There are some people out there that like to learn from trial and error, those folks could care less what someone else has to say and regardless of the money, they aren't going to pay for advice.

QDMAMAN
07-21-2010, 09:00 AM
Contrary to what MDuffey wants to believe and his uncontrollable desire to turn every thread I post on upside down with the mention of a specific individuals name, this thread was not about THAT individual but rather a legit question to those on this board so perhaps HE should let that dog lay.
BSK stated that the QDMA's focus from the beginning is education, first and foremost, and that despite it's evolution it remains an educational organization. I agree. However with the swell of members that we have experienced over the last decade, as well as the success that QDM practitioners have experienced, it has created a demand for consultants. The most qualified consultants are obviously QDMA members, or at least should be IMO.
I personally have been deer hunting in excess of 30 years in Michigan on private land (with permission), public, private leased land, and my own private land.
My first excursion into "paying" for information was when I attended Whitetail University in Northern Michigan with Dr. Kroll, Ben Koreth, and Gordon Whittington. I don't recall the exact amount of the school but $800-$900 rings a bell. With the exception of the in field tutorials, all of the printed information was photo copies of articles from North American Whitetail magazine. Being a charter subscriber to NAW I had already read all of those same articles but having them condensed and organized provided some value and continues to. It's hard to put a price on the knowledge gained by spending 3 days around guys like Kroll and Whittington and I also value the relationships with them that continue to be fostered since that school.
Although I have attended a TL boot camp, as many here are aware, it is not my only source of "paid for" information and probably won't be my last. In fact, the reason for this thread is because 2 friends from here in Michigan made the drive down to the Ozarks this week to tour Dr. Wood's laboratory and I considered asking to ride along, paying my share of course.
Because of the multiple sources of information I've tapped into both paid for and free and on this site and others, I've been able to formulate a plan that incorporates several ideas. Personally the ideas I gained at boot camp gave me the best results for both time and money spent. That's MY experience.
While I can't say for certain whether I'd extend an invite to a pro to hunt my property I have extended invites to fellow QDMers and QDM skeptics, that I otherwise never would have prior to becoming more management focused.
As far as Dr. Grant Woods is concerned, I wish him massive success because his success, I believe, is all of our success.

Big T

fiveyear
07-21-2010, 10:55 AM
fiveyear,
This is a PRIVATE tract.

Big T

Hopefully you read my post and understand the point I was trying to make. Sometimes we look at things like a fee to do something and it appears absurd. The Reef in the Florida Keys is 6 miles off shore. So why would I pay somebody $150.00 to take me out there give me dive gear, drinks, food, teach you a few things, put wear and tear on their boat, supply safety gear, etc.

When I could do it my self for 3 times the cost!!!

Meaning sometimes people charge a fee for doing something and it truly is a bargain as it would cost you more to do it yourself. This is an evolution in my thinking that has come about over my life.

Reef diving was an example but the real example burning in my brain was Lobster diving. We have done it for many years. I derive a great deal of satisfaction from it and it is great exercise, snorkeling down 20 feet in strong current, see lots of sharks, reef fish, lobsters, harvest Grouper and Lobster and have one heck of a seafood dinner. With my accountant on the boat one day we started thinking about the cost per pound. We came up with a figure of $400.00 per pound for the Lobsters when the total trip cost is considered.

I can buy lobster from a seafood house at $20.00 per pound and have it served to me at a restaurant with a salad for around the same price. So why pay the extra money and get the full experience. It is because the full experience(however grueling it may be.) is greater than the savings on the lobster.

Likening it to the deer land program. I would hope things can be learned that will make it cheaper and easier and hopefully save the money spent. Again one of those life learned lessons. What works vs. what doesn't etc.

I take a boat to the Keys and still hire a guide to take ME fishing! By the time I do it myself I have wasted the time and money it would have cost to hire him.

QDMAMAN
07-21-2010, 11:08 AM
Gotcha fiveyear!

BSK_
07-21-2010, 11:18 AM
There are some people out there that like to learn from trial and error, those folks could care less what someone else has to say and regardless of the money, they aren't going to pay for advice.

And that's what makes our differences so wonderful. It takes all kinds and I love that different ways of doing things make people happy. I fully understand and appreciate the "I want to learn on my own" attitude. More power to those people.

BSK_
07-21-2010, 11:22 AM
With my accountant on the boat one day we started thinking about the cost per pound. We came up with a figure of $400.00 per pound for the Lobsters when the total trip cost is considered.


I once sat down and calculated how much venison is actually costing me per pound. I'll never do that again!!! ;)

fiveyear
07-21-2010, 11:40 AM
I once sat down and calculated how much venison is actually costing me per pound. I'll never do that again!!! ;)

We are all better off not thinking about those MINOR DETAILS!!:eek:
Head on the wall. Priceless!

DeltaDog
07-21-2010, 11:51 AM
I once sat down and calculated how much venison is actually costing me per pound. I'll never do that again!!! ;)

No doubt! I used to have Microsoft Money, to help me track my expenses. After 1 year, I had to change the Hunting and Fishing categories into "Miscellaneous Expenditures." It was just TOO depressing!:rolleyes:

I said above that I don't have a problem with paying people to teach me, if they're qualified.
I also don't have a problem with the folks that go and figure it out on their own. Look at Lickcreek: he, as far as I can tell, is figuring it out on his own, and sharing pretty much anything and everything he can, to help those of us that are too dumb / lazy / impatient to do it ourselves ( I know I'm lazy and impatient -- I figure there's probably more than a few here who think I'm dumb, too! :D ).

Like you said: It takes all kinds to make this world go round.

Now, I DO think I WOULD have a problem with paying a team to come down and hunt my place. I may pay them to tour it and consult me on it. And we may become good friends. And I may invite them, as friends, to hunt. And, as friends, they would respect my management requirements, and not kill anything outside of my management plan.
I do take friends with me, from time to time. And they know the potential is there for a really nice buck.

My best friend is not interested in racks, at all. He likes to eat venison, though. And if I tell him "6 points or better," he'll shoot a 6 point.
Like this:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff226/dudlbugr/BigBuck.jpg

Sigh... I had just seen a basket rack 8, @ 2.5 years old, on the river bank, and it was that magical time when bucks were out looking for does, and a good time to be on the river bank. I had told him "6 point or better," as that was the club rule.
And there it is, all 6 points. He shot him about 20 minutes after daylight, and we were "there for the day." If I had told him 10 points or better, he still would have gone hunting with me, and would have passed this deer up...

MDuffy
07-21-2010, 01:18 PM
Contrary to what MDuffey wants to believe and his uncontrollable desire to turn every thread I post on upside down with the mention of a specific individuals name, this thread was not about THAT individual but rather a legit question to those on this board so perhaps HE should let that dog lay.

Please accept my deepest apologies. It's just that I had never seen you post about anything else. I was wrong and I am sorry.:o :o

MDuffy
07-21-2010, 01:21 PM
I've only been on this board for a few weeks and you talk about this Tony LaPratt fella more than anybody else!!! You seem to CARE THE MOST about about him. You seem to be the one killing the horses in the first place :rolleyes:

Bruiser,

I couldn't care less. I based my opinion solely from QDMAMAN's previous posts and that alone. I apologized to him and I am apologizing to you.

PS I don't talk about Tony LaPratt more than anyone else. I made 1 attempt at humor, which I thought was pretty good and some others disagreed:D , and this post on this thread. That's it.

MDuffy
07-21-2010, 01:23 PM
By the way, I would absolutely pay $166.67 to have a private tour of Grant Wood's property if I thought I could learn some things to help me improve my property. He has done things there that nobody else in his area has done.

I'm with Auarchery on this one, I learn more from Grant every year at convention than anyone else.

Dogwood
07-21-2010, 01:35 PM
By the way, I would absolutely pay $166.67 to have a private tour of Grant Wood's property if I thought I could learn some things to help me improve my property.

Okay, Matt. Find a third man, and I'll go with ya. Can we wait until next year, though. Weddings have been eating me alive, lately!:eek: :)

FL Forester
07-21-2010, 01:56 PM
Here's what you get and it's $500.00 for up to 3 people.

Food Plot Establishment and Maintenance: The equipment we use, the crops we have found to work, and the fertilizer types and amounts to produce deer with antlers way better than average for our neighborhood

Trail Camera Use for Scouting and Herd Monitoring: We use trail cameras to pattern mature bucks and determine the herd’s adult sex ratio, buck age structure, average size of bucks, etc. (We also use them for turkey scouting)

Tree Stand Placement and Hunting Techniques: The where, when, and how in achieving hunting success

Road Construction & Maintenance: Techniques we use to minimize erosion and reduce costs associated with road maintenance

Prescribed Fire: When, why, and how – the tools we use to promote safety and control while minimizing cost

Timber Management: How to implement timber management with wildlife habitat improvement as the primary objective for timber management

Water Resources: The how, where and why of pond construction and creek maintenance/improvement

…Most everything deer and turkey hunting and management

Big T


With all os the different training classes that I get to take for work, this would be divided into several days. Even the Master Wildlifer class was one night a week for 8 weeks. That course covered several different species, one species at a time.

As others have said, what works in one area might not work the same way in your area. You would be better off to spend your money to have a LOCAL biologist come spend the time on YOUR property. You can even get state game biologists and foresters to come look and give you advice and answer your questions for free.

blumsden
07-21-2010, 02:27 PM
$166 is cheap, if it's not a buch of commercialized BS. If they tell you to use this seed because they are being paid by that seed company or to do this because they are getting paid by them. Everyone on here has tried some trial and error in the past that didn't work and we wasted a hell of a lot more money than that. Most of the crap you see on the outdoor channel doesn't work very well in Alabama. The midwest has got some of the dumbest deer i've ever seen. They walk right out into the wide open for no reason at all. $500 sounds high until you break it down by three. It's all about your goals and what you need to get out of it.

npaden
07-21-2010, 02:50 PM
I would if I was close enough to drive and the habitat was pretty similar to what I have on my place.

That $500 is for Dr. Woods time spent with you and your friends to give you the tour of the property and impart his knowledge to you along the way.

I would guess that the tour at least takes a couple hours, but it could be a 1/2 day affair. $125 - $250 per hour for a nationally known expert to meet with you on such an intimate setting is a very reasonable price. Dividing that with a friend would be even better, they might think of things to ask that you didn't and it would cut the price in 1/2. I'm not sure it would be worth it for a 3rd guy to tag along because he might ask too many questions and not give me a chance to ask the questions I want too! ;)

I would hate for some folks to know what professionals in other fields charge on an hourly basis.

deerlover
07-21-2010, 03:18 PM
Grant was our first banquet presenter many years ago.

He came in at a very reasonable price and gave the audience their money's worth. He spoke with everyone and signed what they wanted signed. He is in this for the education, the promotion of proper deer management, and for a living. He has given way more to QDM than most of us will ever be able to give back.

Grant has managed acreages in the south, midwest, and the north, but yet he chooses to manage ground in the Ozarks. I think the man is a bit off his rocker. If you have ground that isn't the most conducive to crops, succulent ground cover, or has less than one bucket of dirt per acre...then his program might be for you. Even if you have good ground, Grant will teach you something you didn't know....guaranteed.

BSK will be my all time favorite speaker at our banquets and he is more than welcome to be our 7th annual speaker. He provides tons of great info for your property and will try to shake every attendee's hand in the process.

Kudo's Bryan, we all give Grant trouble from time to time, but he should be appreciated too!


Ive been to a couple now and I thought the most impressive speaker was Mark Drury....of course he learned what he knows on the habitat side from Dr Grant Woods.
I wont forget his lines ever....he showed Grant his newly purchased land and said, "Grant, isn't this woods pretty, it looks like a park". I am sure Grant rolled his eyes and started on a plan to help him out. Now Mark has an UNREAL place in IL that he hunts each year. What I see more on his videos than anything is edge (WSG all around the edge of his woods with a neatly tucked in food plot just in the right spot).

It must be a really good feeling to pass up 150" 4 year olds in hopes one of your 5-8 year olds will also come strolling by.....and they do!

BSK_
07-21-2010, 03:54 PM
I wouldn't pay any bum a single dollar to tell me anything about deer.

So you know all there is to know about deer, or is it just the "paying" part you don't like?

QDMAMAN
07-21-2010, 03:59 PM
Okay, Matt. Find a third man, and I'll go with ya.

Shouldn't i be cashing in on a finders fee or something?:D

Apologized accepted Matt. All my posts here are archived if you're interested.

Big T

BSK_
07-21-2010, 04:02 PM
Ive been to a couple now and I thought the most impressive speaker was Mark Drury....of course he learned what he knows on the habitat side from Dr Grant Woods.
I wont forget his lines ever....he showed Grant his newly purchased land and said, "Grant, isn't this woods pretty, it looks like a park".

If I had a dollar for every landowner that has told me, "We don't have a deer overpopulation problem..." yet I can see the browseline as I pull up to the front gate...

QDMAMAN
07-21-2010, 04:17 PM
If I had a dollar for every landowner that has told me, "We don't have a deer overpopulation problem..." yet I can see the browseline as I pull up to the front gate...

Brows line!!! What's a browse line? LOL

fuldraw
07-21-2010, 04:39 PM
If I had a dollar for every landowner that has told me, "We don't have a deer overpopulation problem..." yet I can see the browseline as I pull up to the front gate...

hey bsk this is off topic but i have 4 one acre soybeans and 1/4 sunflowers and about 6.5 in clover chickery and lastyears wheat/tsi all in the middle of the woods no plot saver or ele wire used and the beans are above the knee and the sunflowers are blooming i wish we had some deer :eek:


mike

deerlover
07-21-2010, 05:00 PM
If I had a dollar for every landowner that has told me, "We don't have a deer overpopulation problem..." yet I can see the browseline as I pull up to the front gate...

BSK, how long in your opinion would a browse line take to dissapear once management number were completed?

maya
07-21-2010, 07:03 PM
If I had a dollar for every landowner that has told me, "We don't have a deer overpopulation problem..." yet I can see the browseline as I pull up to the front gate...


LOL!!! I bet that is the case more than not!

QDMAMAN, I'm not arrogant enough to think I know it all so certain professionals like Dr Woods and others like them that give plenty of free info in QW mag and the like would be very appealing to me. I know I've already gotten $1000's worth of info from him, BSK, Kip and all the other QDMA contributors.

I do wonder how big the differences wood be between his area and mine. About 8 years ago I read Dougherty's book and decided to go to his place for his tour. For $50 it was worth it and I think for 500 split 3 ways it would be worth it if he was closer. Dougherty's property is very similar to mine.

I'd like to hear BSK's thoughts on your question too, Deerlover. I bet its quicker to rebuild a low deer density than to rebuild a overbrowsed woodlot!

Redonthehead
07-21-2010, 07:11 PM
No, I would not pay $500 for a private tour of Dr. Woods place. I respect him and enjoy his Growing Deer videos, but come-on, you don't need a PhD to do what he has done. Take a large absentee owned tract that was overrun by trespassers, 4x4ers, illegal cattle, etc in the poor Ozark hills, spend 8 years putting in food plots, etc, and things are bound to improve dramatically. I wouldn't mind visiting the place though - I'm only about 30 miles away.

I've just begun my own 4-8 year journey on a tract I have bought. I'd be a lot more likely to pay someone to help me on my design. Kind of like hiring Robert Trent Jones to design your golf course.

QDMAMAN
07-21-2010, 09:01 PM
Take a large absentee owned tract that was overrun by trespassers, 4x4ers, illegal cattle, etc in the poor Ozark hills, spend 8 years putting in food plots, etc, and things are bound to improve dramatically.

Interesting, and something Ireally hadn't considered until you pointed it out.
There is a 160 acre parcel just the other side of town from where i live. This parcel was owned by a wealthy gentleman that resides in Fla.
Michigan has a program that pays land owners to allow public hunting on private parcels and this gentleman enrolled his parcel.
This is SUPREME whitetail habitat with a mix of ag, low brush, and a heavily wooded river bottom. The river meandered for close to 3/4 of a mile through this piece.
With Michigan's firearm deer opener each year on the 15th of November this parcel would be pocked up with pumkins like a Charlie Brown episode and anything that moved was shot, that is anything that survived the 6 weeks of INTENSE archery pressure leading up to the gun opener.
This parcel was eventually purchased by the adjoining land owner and parceled the east 80 into a subdivision with lots in the 5-20 acre range as well as the west 80 being purchased by a single individual. The new owners are planting plots being selective with their buck harvest and hunting smart.
Even though this parcel was divided it has become one of the most productive 1/4 sections in our area and routinely produces 3.5 yo and older bucks as well as an abundance of does.
I'm sure that Dr. Wood's property is spectacular but I would think that ANY quality food source, where little is available, as well as a drastic reduction in human activity, would have made a dramatic difference in the attractiveness to the local deer herd.
It will be interesting to track the progress of his program in the coming years.

Big T

RLW
07-21-2010, 09:11 PM
Please accept my deepest apologies. It's just that I had never seen you post about anything else. I was wrong and I am sorry.:o :o

I would not apologize for anything. This was a thinly veiled attempt at a "you'll think I'm talking about TL, but I'm not" gotcha post.

If the OP was actually wondering what forum members thought about the tour, the question would have been more along the lines of, "Do you think that it is worth $500 for you and two friends to spend a day touring Grant Woods property with him?"

QDMAMAN
07-21-2010, 09:18 PM
QDMAMAN, I'm not arrogant enough to think I know it all so certain professionals like Dr Woods and others like them that give plenty of free info in QW mag and the like would be very appealing to me. I know I've already gotten $1000's worth of info from him, BSK, Kip and all the other QDMA contributors.

I'm with you 100%.
It's a common practice to offer "freebies" or reduced priced services or merchandise to create interest in your business.
I would be shocked if Grant attended a QDMA convention and gave a 1-2 hour presentation and didn't expect it to generate some interest in his expertise for hire, in fact I'd be disappointed if he didn't.
Those that frequent forums such as this one, glean a tremendous amount of knowledge from some of the more knowledgeable participants. Over time, sometimes months or years, they can become confident enough to implement those ideas into their own plan.
To assume that all the good free QDM stuff only comes through this forum or the QW magazine, would be very limiting. There is a ton of info shared at branch sponsored field days, seminars, or hunting related trade shows that many highly informative QDMA members present at.
I'm an unabashed QDM junky and have been known to travel long distances, at great personal expense, to get my fix.:) It's all good...most of the time.;)

Big T

QDMAMAN
07-21-2010, 09:20 PM
[QUOTE=RLW;308768]I would not apologize for anything. QUOTE]

I have no doubts. But you're still wrong.:)

Big T

ureyes
07-21-2010, 11:29 PM
So you know all there is to know about deer, or is it just the "paying" part you don't like?

BSK, I know enough that a better way to spend that 500 bucks would be to feed some hungery folks or perhaps put clothes on a needy child.

There isn't that much to know about deer. Maybe I was lucky growing up or what I don't know but guys that "consult" generally make it sound alot more difficult than it really is. Anyone making money at something will do the same thing....its good for bussiness.

Anybody with the drive and half a brain can do it themselves.

Thats the question do you have the drive and half a brain. If not then hire someone to teach you how to "properly manage" deer......forget about those kids and hungry folks.

QDMAMAN
07-22-2010, 07:24 AM
a better way to spend that 500 bucks would be to feed some hungery folks or perhaps put clothes on a needy child.


Ironically I've helped to feed more starving women and naked children since my deer management obsession began than I did before. I typically donate upwards of 5-6 processed deer per year to those less fortunate than I and STILL maintain my tithe and charitable giving.
God's abundance knows no bounds.;)

Big T

banc123
07-22-2010, 07:59 AM
Its 168 vs 500 and I can totally appreciate the aspect of discretionary spending on anything when so many people are hurting these days. I pass by a neighborhood in poverty every time I go to the woods and its tough to throw $200 in a food plot after passing people in distress. But the fact is that will always be no matter what I do.

I think most people who can afford to manage a property, won't go broke spending 168 and spend that an more all the time on discretionary spending even outside deer mgt. Also don't think as noble as people are here that most wouldn't give away all their discretionary spending.

That said the decision is an individual one and a no is probably driven by the belief there is nothing to learn or an ego about something one thinks is beneath their knowledge. Value is in the eye of the beholder and everyone sees things their own way.

scrimshaw33
07-22-2010, 08:09 AM
I'm sure that Dr. Wood's property is spectacular but I would think that ANY quality food source, where little is available, as well as a drastic reduction in human activity, would have made a dramatic difference in the attractiveness to the local deer herd.
It will be interesting to track the progress of his program in the coming years.

So your saying that providing a good food source and little human pressure might attract deer and that TL tactics aren't necessary? I don't see how touring Grant Woods property and touring TL's property, with Grant arguably one of the best deer managers and researcher, is much different, and if you're saying you wouldn't get much out of Grant's property how can you get much out of TLs property.

I'm sure that's the question you want people to ask so you can say how great this guy is.

If I owned Grant's land I would definitely charge people to come, otherwise you'd have everyone and his brother coming for a visit and I'm sure no one would have the time for that.

His Q and A about coming to hunt your land is answered from questions people really ask so I don't think Grant came up with that question on his own. I've seen the same question on Midwest Whitetails online show. I guess some people would actually want someone to come hunt their property and televise it. I wouldn't want that either but it's probably for those who want media attention or more bookings at their lodge, etc.?

I personally wouldn't want to tour Grant's property as I just think his way of managing is different from my own in that I have 100 acres and he has 1000s. He manages in bulk and I do so more in detail. The concepts are similar but most information you can get for free here.

QDMAMAN
07-22-2010, 09:39 AM
So your saying that providing a good food source and little human pressure might attract deer and that TL tactics aren't necessary? I don't see how touring Grant Woods property and touring TL's property, with Grant arguably one of the best deer managers and researcher, is much different, and if you're saying you wouldn't get much out of Grant's property how can you get much out of TLs property.

Apples and oranges. One property, as you pointed out, is over 1,000 acres the other is 52. I personally own 19 and lease another 11 a 1/2 mile away and lack of deer isn't an issue in my area age structure, and adequate cover is, however.
Can you please point out to ME where I indicated that I wouldn't get much out of touring Grant's property or where I indicated that it wasn't a good value? If you go back through the thread you'll actually read where I considered tagging along with my friends this week to do just that.
Quality food is in abundance in every direction from my property and is being grown by professional croppers. I have no need, or desire, to grow mega forage soys to feed the local deer population my needs and desires focus around winter food sources as well as adequate and plentiful bedding and security cover.
I also was lacking in the "skill" department when it came to pinning down mature bucks. Through doing my homework, and interviewing hunters that had the results I was looking for, I hired one and viola...RESULTS!
I have always been capable of throwing seed in the dirt, running a chainsaw, and killing bucks I just wasn't doing a very good job of doing it correctly to my standards. Spending a few hundred bucks has saved me thousands and helped me to obtain some lifetime goals.

Big T

BSK_
07-22-2010, 10:40 AM
BSK, how long in your opinion would a browse line take to dissapear once management number were completed?

That would depend on many factors, including the type of habitat, intensity of over-browsing (what species are over-browsed), geographic location, how much the deer density was lowered, climate, etc.

BSK_
07-22-2010, 10:44 AM
BSK, I know enough that a better way to spend that 500 bucks would be to feed some hungery folks or perhaps put clothes on a needy child.

There isn't that much to know about deer. Maybe I was lucky growing up or what I don't know but guys that "consult" generally make it sound alot more difficult than it really is. Anyone making money at something will do the same thing....its good for bussiness.

Anybody with the drive and half a brain can do it themselves.

Thats the question do you have the drive and half a brain. If not then hire someone to teach you how to "properly manage" deer......forget about those kids and hungry folks.

So those spending 8 years to get a PhD in wildlife biology are really just wasting a lot of time? I mean if anyone with half a brain can do it...

smsmith
07-22-2010, 10:52 AM
So those spending 8 years to get a PhD in wildlife biology are really just wasting a lot of time? I mean if anyone with half a brain can do it...

:D that's some good stuff right there

BSK_
07-22-2010, 10:58 AM
No, I would not pay $500 for a private tour of Dr. Woods place. I respect him and enjoy his Growing Deer videos, but come-on, you don't need a PhD to do what he has done. Take a large absentee owned tract that was overrun by trespassers, 4x4ers, illegal cattle, etc in the poor Ozark hills, spend 8 years putting in food plots, etc, and things are bound to improve dramatically.

I'm by no means defending Grant's business practices. Whether it's worth $500 to tour a property is up to you. But knowing the property--before and after--the above would be a VAST understement concerning what has been accomplished. I've seen a ton of properties around the country improve dramatically with sound management practices. I know what "normal" improvements with management over time look like. What Grant has accomplished is FAR beyond that.

Now if I had one criticism, it would be time and money spent. I know how much time and money has gone into Grant's property. How many of us could do the same? Some could, but I bet most couldn't or wouldn't.


...but come-on, you don't need a PhD to do what he has done.

Perhaps not a PhD, but certainly years and years and years of experience testing what does and does not work in deer/habitat management, and hard scientific data to prove both.

scrimshaw33
07-22-2010, 11:48 AM
Perhaps not a PhD, but certainly years and years and years of experience testing what does and does not work in deer/habitat management, and hard scientific data to prove both.

I certainly think a PhD has helped him. I'm sure Dr. Woods and Bryan both, through their research, know more about deer and deer hunting and what works based on research and not opinion than the vast majority of hunters. I think it does say a lot to have a PhD in wildlife biology. How can one not? He's an expert in WILDLIFE BIOLOGY. Of course he knows a lot more than most of us. Sure anyone can plant things and make thick cover, but he knows there were, why and how and why things work and why things don't.

BSK_
07-22-2010, 12:06 PM
Just don't put me in the "good deer hunter" category. I would put my hunting skills at "average" at best. Although, without question, "science," research and data analysis have taught me things that have made me a better hunter.

bruiser73
07-22-2010, 12:13 PM
I don't think anyone is saying that a Phd is not well earned and respected. I was asked to finish my Phd, but I couldn't stand the thought of taking 72 more hours of coursework. It certainly takes a level of commitment and hard work to achieve.
I just think that anyone who puts enough commitment into learning about something can become an "expert" in most fields. (with the exception of board licensed professionals such as medical doctors).

There are lots of success stories of people without formal education becoming masters in their field. However, it does help to get your name in lights and charge more of a premium when you have the right initials next to your name.

criggster
07-22-2010, 12:48 PM
There isn't that much to know about deer. Maybe I was lucky growing up or what I don't know but guys that "consult" generally make it sound alot more difficult than it really is. Anyone making money at something will do the same thing....its good for bussiness.

Anybody with the drive and half a brain can do it themselves.

Thats the question do you have the drive and half a brain. If not then hire someone to teach you how to "properly manage" deer......forget about those kids and hungry folks.


"He is wisest who knows that he does not know!"

BSK_
07-22-2010, 01:08 PM
There are lots of success stories of people without formal education becoming masters in their field. However, it does help to get your name in lights and charge more of a premium when you have the right initials next to your name.

Both of those statements are absolutely true. I can think of several instances in which a non-college-degreed person became a respected expert in a particular area of knowledge/information.

However, there can be a big difference between acquiring/implementing knowledge about a topic, and the actual "science" behind that topic--i.e. being able to appropriately measure and test results as well as differentiate between results, random fluctuations in data, and the "noise" of outside influences.

Don't get me wrong. Anyone can learn the principles of deer and habitat management that when implemented often produce dramatic results. However, trying to get results beyond that level is what requires a great deal of knowledge and experience. That doesn't mean a degree or even a PhD. Just a great deal of knowledge and experience, as well as understanding of the science behind it all.

scrimshaw33
07-22-2010, 03:02 PM
I don't know I still think there's a lot of difference b/t Bryan or Dr. Woods and most of us. You don't go through a lot of research and studying for nothing.

QDMAMAN
07-22-2010, 10:27 PM
Personally...I'm grateful for Dr. Woods, BSK, Kip, Brian, and others fancy book learnin.:D

Big T

bioactive
07-23-2010, 01:15 AM
Personally...I'm grateful for Dr. Woods, BSK, Kip, Brian, and others fancy book learnin.:D

Big T

Tony;

I think I resemble that remark:D ...since I probably stimulated your post with my recent e-mail to you.

Jake and I just got back from spending the day on Grant Wood's property. We spent about 6 hours touring his 1500ish acre property, just me, Jake and Grant in the truck and walking the food plots. Is it worth it? Well, yes, for me it is. I have followed some of his blogs and videos and being a scientist myself, viewed them with a certain degree of skepticism.

Can you really grow 4 foot tall soybeans on ground that has almost no soil but is mostly rock, doing so on the top of ridges rather than in the low areas where one expects to find good soils? Well, I don't think so if I see a video of it but I know so if I get out of a truck and walk through it. Blogs and videos bring you only a fraction of the information and zero on the ground proof of what is possible. Six hours of continuous question and answer, tasting the tops of the plants, viewing the lush green four foot tall soybeans in a place where they shouldn't grow, getting detailed insights into how it was accomplished, well, to a deer nut like me that is priceless.

Any of you guys growing soybeans four feet tall, and corn plants 12 feet tall in an area with 76 deer per square mile (according to Grant's camera surveys) and on rock substrata, who want to freely invite me to visit your property and provide me with 6 hours of your time candidly answering every question I ask, well, PM me.

My pal Jake and I are interested in learning every thing we can about deer behavior, habitat management, science of deer and the plants they eat. We get lots of tours of outstanding properties for free. We learn lots of stuff for free (including all the great information we have learned from Big T). We also are willing to pay if a guy has special expertise and is heads above the rest (Grant is when it comes to growing deer food under difficult conditions). I have paid Tony LaPratt for information, I have paid the QDMA for the Deer Steward class. Jake and I decided on our ride back from Missouri that our next trip will be to see what Neil Dougherty's property has to teach us. Don't know what he charges, don't particularly care. Just know I like what I see from his writings and talking to him in the past and know that walking ground is 100 times more useful than reading an article or seeing a video.

Is it worth it? Well that depends on several things, including how much of a deer nut you are and how much disposable income you have. If you are busy trying to make ends meet it makes no sense whatsoever to pay someone $500 for information about deer hunting. Just pay the $15 and go shoot a doe (MI) for meat, you need it. But if you are me or my pal Jake, well, we have worked for the last 30 years or so to get in a position where we can afford it, and we are certifiably crazy about deer hunting, so it is worth it to us.

Grant's place is near Branson Missouri. It is sort of like the Vegas of the Midwest. The streets were crowded with thousands of people spending a lot more than $500 to vacation there and see the shows and spend more money at Bass Pro Shops. For them, it is worth it to pay $79 for a couple of hours at Yakov's Russian circus. For me and Jake, it is worth it to spend about $40/hour to get an on the ground look and recipe for growing deer food at the ultimate top of the pyramid.

The trip was more worthwhile because it took us right past Tony L's house on the way home and we were able to stop by and get his perspective on some of what we learned (for free:) ). For the record, Tony is one of the best experts I have met at growing deer food, but I have never seen any 4 ft. tall soybeans at his place:) . Each deer manager has areas of particular expertize, nobody knows it all. What's wrong (if you can afford it) with paying for access to a revered man's time and attention?

Grant deserves to be paid for his knowledge just as I do by the people who hire me as a consultant.

sandbur
07-23-2010, 08:29 AM
bioactive-It sounds like your trip was well worth it.

I would not pay $500 dollars to tour a property, but would pay nearly that amount of money to get an understanding of the principles behind their actions. I don't need to learn how to grow 4 foot soybeans in my present hunting areas and with the present deer populations.

I like to do things myself, but like to learn the basics and then modify and apply the information to my situation. My questions would be why are you doing this, not necesarily how are you doing this. Why are you doing this in this situation and not in a different situation or location.

bioactive, It sounds like you could direct your questions to the areas you werre interested in.

I have to give credit to BSK. He been of great help in explaining things to me that I do not quite understand. It would be well worth spending some money to have him explain his managment decisions and why he does them.

deerlover
07-23-2010, 09:43 AM
That would depend on many factors, including the type of habitat, intensity of over-browsing (what species are over-browsed), geographic location, how much the deer density was lowered, climate, etc.

It's ok to say, " I don't know". :D

BSK_
07-23-2010, 09:49 AM
It's ok to say, " I don't know". :D

A big difference exists between "I don't know" and "I would need more information to answer the question." ;)

smsmith
07-23-2010, 11:01 AM
How on earth could anyone say the exact length of time it would take for a browse line to disappear without having all kinds of background info? The amount of time it would take in south TX would be much different than the amount of time it would take in southern Ontario. The amount of time it would take in northeast WI could be signficantly different that the amount of it would take in northcentral WI.

That kind of stuff is why a guy does need a doctorate in natural resources.

Bucks-R-Us
07-23-2010, 09:39 PM
Would any one here spend $500.00 for you and a friend to tour a well managed property for one day, personally guided by the land owner/manager?
This property is in the mid west and very commercialized with sponsors and is owned by a prominent member/contributor to the QDMA.

Big T

Under the right circumstances I would. I would first of all have to have the disposable income to do it, there is no way Momma is gonna let me take it out of the grocery budget! I would have to know someone who has already gone, and trust/respect thier opinion. There would have to be a direct correlation between the host property and my own. It wouldn't hurt to be going with a good guy like Big T either.;)

bioactive
07-23-2010, 09:50 PM
bioactive-It sounds like your trip was well worth it.

I would not pay $500 dollars to tour a property, but would pay nearly that amount of money to get an understanding of the principles behind their actions.



Understanding the principles behind the actions is exactly why a hands on feel and smell the dirt eat the plants ask the questions for several hours is worth 10,000 posts on a forum or videos or blogs. One of the things that we got from this particular visit is that we could save hundreds of dollars every year on fertilizer and lime by employing some of Grant's techniques. So in the long run, the $250 each that we spent will literally be recouped several times next year alone and each year after that. We would not have believed anything that was shown in a blog or video. But seeing it with our own eyes convinced us that there were better ways to grow plants. We both know we are going to save huge amounts of money over the next several years by employing some of the techniques we learned.

I don't need to learn how to grow 4 foot soybeans in my present hunting areas and with the present deer populations.

I have no interest in growing 4 ft. soybeans either. I let the farmers around me grow soybeans--they play an extremely minor role in my food plot selections. But the underlying principles for growing soybeans have to do with how you develop the dirt. Someone said once that "antlers are made of dirt." Doesn't it fascinate you that someone can take soil that is mainly rock and grow plants better than any farmer anywhere? We drove 720 miles home and never saw a single soybean field that was half as tall as the ones Grant grows. The approaches he uses have to do with how to take marginal soils and grow plants on them. It will work for wheat, brassicas, oats, clover, chicory and probably any other green thing.

By the way. Much of what he does we would not do in our situation. We take what we can use and leave what we would do differently (lot's of things). Nonetheless. We will make back our investment within one year several times over. Neither one of us has a shadow of a doubt about that.

QDMAMAN
07-23-2010, 10:16 PM
Nonetheless. We will make back our investment within one year several times over. Neither one of us has a shadow of a doubt about that.

I look at every dollar I spend as an investment that I will get a return on for years to come whether that return is mature bucks, money spent on habitat, or friendships.
Good stuff there Jim!BTW, thanks for the free tour this month!;)

Big T

uright
07-24-2010, 02:35 AM
So those spending 8 years to get a PhD in wildlife biology are really just wasting a lot of time? I mean if anyone with half a brain can do it...

:eek: I believe that is really true! The caveman did it for quite some time, along with the Indians! To answer the original question "NO, I WOULD NOT PAY ANYONE TO TOUR THEIR PROPERTY A PROFIT-IF YOU FEE WAS TO COVER YOUR COST OF GUIDING ME AND FUEL FOR YOUR MODE OF TRANSPORTATION AROUND THE PROPERTY..OK" This is a pissing match now so here is my 2 cents. YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT I BELIEVE... You are paying to see something with your own eyes, is this a trip to the zoo? Doubtful. BSK, as for your comments on education-remember education is power and power is knowledge:rolleyes: I believe knowledge is power and and educational institutions are there to teach. Let's think logically, if ureyes has spent the time in the great outdoors like many of us have then why is it you think the degree and time in school outweighs his knowledge and passion for hunting?? Hmmm, it's ok to stand up for someone but make sure you know who you are standing up against. I am currently working on my MBA and let me tell you, there are some fools out there getting degrees my friend. The real deal coming together is where it really counts. That is great if dr ? is making money of someone but tell it like it is. That is a business for them and they probably really don't care solely about the success of the rest of the team out here. If you are in it for solely profit then it is a business, not a helping hand. AND, what if someone does go and pay 500 dollars. Is it a guarantee that the same stuff is going to work on my land??? Probably not. Let me tell you what works and my QDMA, MAKE SURE YOU GIVE BACK TO NATURE MORE THAN YOU TAKE...THE END! I have seen pictures and read info posted by ureyes and they have been very truthful and open. Just imagine if he decides to charge us for his experience and knowledge or if everyone of us does that. WOULDN'T THAT MAKE US A CROOKED AS POLITICIANS??? I'M SAYN! :p PS- I still wouldn't pay someone 500 to look at what works for them..... (You can walk a broke man through a rich man's house but that won't make him rich now will it) Jus cause it works for that dude don't mean he needs to jack someone else for their money! UNLESS IT IS HIS BUSINESS!!!!! THEN, I AM COOL WITH THAT!:D

ureyes
07-24-2010, 02:52 AM
So those spending 8 years to get a PhD in wildlife biology are really just wasting a lot of time? I mean if anyone with half a brain can do it...

If your getting edumacated for 8yrs to learn how to manage deer than yes absolutely its a waste of both time and money!

I know to well the science behind statistical analysis. I deal with it almost daily...... just in a different type of environment. However I can confindently say that statics aren't worth a terd in alot of real world situations. Deer are no exception to the rule.

Of course as always those more edjumacated folks don't see it thata ways because well thats just it, they are more edjumacated. Really only means they spent the money and time to get a fancy piece of paper saying they know about something. Doesn't mean they really do. I'd trade all the edjumacation in the world for a lick of common sense!

Not sure why I'm bothered by someone charging and or paying large sums of money to learn or see how to do things that aren't really that complicated to begin with. Is burning a field rocket science? What about 4 foot tall beans....gee impressive, fertilizer couldn't be a part of that could it, make sure its those Eagles too, man you gotta have those! What about cutting up a tree, thats special stuff right there and that bedding to feeding pattern.... your not gonna get that knowledge anywhere else. I shouldn't be surprised, society is totally whacked these days.

Hate to bust balls or ballons but IMO anyone paying that kind of money for a property tour is foolish and anyone charging that kinda money is crooked. I wouldn't want to be either person when its all said and done.

Now if they were out on your place sweating it up with you kinda like Don does then it might be worth it anything else is just lip service and that's free all day long in alot of places.

Its just my opinion and an unedjumacated one at that. It won't make alot of friends.

that's some good stuff right there

Smitty, always holding true to your mantra.

sandbur
07-24-2010, 07:40 AM
Understanding the principles behind the actions is exactly why a hands on feel and smell the dirt eat the plants ask the questions for several hours is worth 10,000 posts on a forum or videos or blogs. One of the things that we got from this particular visit is that we could save hundreds of dollars every year on fertilizer and lime by employing some of Grant's techniques. So in the long run, the $250 each that we spent will literally be recouped several times next year alone and each year after that. We would not have believed anything that was shown in a blog or video. But seeing it with our own eyes convinced us that there were better ways to grow plants. We both know we are going to save huge amounts of money over the next several years by employing some of the techniques we learned.



I have no interest in growing 4 ft. soybeans either. I let the farmers around me grow soybeans--they play an extremely minor role in my food plot selections. But the underlying principles for growing soybeans have to do with how you develop the dirt. Someone said once that "antlers are made of dirt." Doesn't it fascinate you that someone can take soil that is mainly rock and grow plants better than any farmer anywhere? We drove 720 miles home and never saw a single soybean field that was half as tall as the ones Grant grows. The approaches he uses have to do with how to take marginal soils and grow plants on them. It will work for wheat, brassicas, oats, clover, chicory and probably any other green thing.

By the way. Much of what he does we would not do in our situation. We take what we can use and leave what we would do differently (lot's of things). Nonetheless. We will make back our investment within one year several times over. Neither one of us has a shadow of a doubt about that.

The knowledge of how to grow good crops on marginal soil would be well wroth it.

I would bet that the things you feel you can't use in your situation will have an application to some situations that you will see. At least the principles of Grant's actions will have an application in a modified way.

sandbur
07-24-2010, 07:55 AM
BSK- I very much appreciate all of your help and contribtuions to this forum. Your experiences and education have added so much to our knowledge.

When people employ you, I am sure they get their money's worth!

smsmith
07-24-2010, 10:54 AM
Smitty, always holding true to your mantra.

Gotta be consistent man.

There's a difference between the education we get from deer hunting and trial and error learning and that you get from a college setting. I know nothing about how nutrition works inside an animal. Rumenology (is that a word?) goes way beyond my scope of learning. Understanding how different food sources lead to health of animal is beyond my scope of learning. I know that it matters, but not why it matters.

I'll agree that we can enough learn stuff here and from others to become successful hunters and successful foodplotters and habitat managers. No argument. However, we're learning from someone right? That person learned from someone else, right? Oftentimes the stuff we're learning comes out of university settings and then is "passed down" through various channels.

Jeager
07-24-2010, 01:59 PM
Understanding the principles behind the actions is exactly why a hands on feel and smell the dirt eat the plants ask the questions for several hours is worth 10,000 posts on a forum or videos or blogs. One of the things that we got from this particular visit is that we could save hundreds of dollars every year on fertilizer and lime by employing some of Grant's techniques. So in the long run, the $250 each that we spent will literally be recouped several times next year alone and each year after that. We would not have believed anything that was shown in a blog or video. But seeing it with our own eyes convinced us that there were better ways to grow plants. We both know we are going to save huge amounts of money over the next several years by employing some of the techniques we learned.



I have no interest in growing 4 ft. soybeans either. I let the farmers around me grow soybeans--they play an extremely minor role in my food plot selections. But the underlying principles for growing soybeans have to do with how you develop the dirt. Someone said once that "antlers are made of dirt." Doesn't it fascinate you that someone can take soil that is mainly rock and grow plants better than any farmer anywhere? We drove 720 miles home and never saw a single soybean field that was half as tall as the ones Grant grows. The approaches he uses have to do with how to take marginal soils and grow plants on them. It will work for wheat, brassicas, oats, clover, chicory and probably any other green thing.

By the way. Much of what he does we would not do in our situation. We take what we can use and leave what we would do differently (lot's of things). Nonetheless. We will make back our investment within one year several times over. Neither one of us has a shadow of a doubt about that.

Wouldn't the fact that Eagle FORAGE soybeans grow much larger than AG soybeans grown for grain explain the difference?

The only farmers that I know of that grow forage soybeans is dairy farmers that chop them for silage.

BSK_
07-24-2010, 03:04 PM
Wouldn't the fact that Eagle FORAGE soybeans grow much larger than AG soybeans grown for grain explain the difference?

Not really. You can plant forage soybeans in terrible soil and get very little growth from them. Trust me, I've tried it! In poor soil conditions, much is required in soil improvement to get substantial growth, even from forage soybeans.

BSK_
07-24-2010, 03:05 PM
uright and ureyes,

I have no problem with your opinions. Everybody looks at the world differently.

bioactive
07-24-2010, 03:16 PM
Wouldn't the fact that Eagle FORAGE soybeans grow much larger than AG soybeans grown for grain explain the difference?

The only farmers that I know of that grow forage soybeans is dairy farmers that chop them for silage.

Yes, the Eagle soybeans have been crossed over many generations to provide forage more than grain. But, Although he has been hit by a cutworm problem, he has grown 10-12 foot tall corn with massive ears on the same ground in past years. One other advantage is the soils there are pretty near neutral pH. Nonetheless--using traditional farming/food plot techniques I think most people would be hard-pressed to grow beans like we saw. He uses no commercial fertilizers whatsoever. Therefore he is not acidifying his soils. Instead he is using custom-made soil rebuilding formulations that maintain pH and fortify the soil with everything a plant needs.

To put this in perspective, you should realize that the ground is pretty much textured like that of gravel or limestone driveway. No soil really, just hard pan of rocks and pebbles. In the areas between fields you drive on this stuff and it is like a hard gravel driveway.

Jeager
07-24-2010, 03:29 PM
Oh, I agree that Grant is highly skilled in many areas and that using Antler Dirt or compost is the way to improve poor soil.

Just that you can't compare forage beans and Ag beans.

bioactive
07-24-2010, 03:39 PM
There are lots of success stories of people without formal education becoming masters in their field. However, it does help to get your name in lights and charge more of a premium when you have the right initials next to your name.

Just speaking for myself, I did not go to see Grant's property because he has initials behind his name. There is a long list of academic deer biologists with inititals behind their names that I would not pay to visit. Grant has dirt under his fingernails and callouses on his hands, and knows what he knows about growing food from putting in sweat equity, not from the classroom (at least regarding the things we were interested in seeing). What he does is not taught in any classroom that I know of.

bioactive
07-24-2010, 03:42 PM
Oh, I agree that Grant is highly skilled in many areas and that using Antler Dirt or compost is the way to improve poor soil.

Just that you can't compare forage beans and Ag beans.

I agree--my earlier comments were a bit along the lines of apples and oranges. Thanks for making that point.

bioactive
07-24-2010, 03:54 PM
Hate to bust balls or ballons but IMO anyone paying that kind of money for a property tour is foolish and anyone charging that kinda money is crooked. I wouldn't want to be either person when its all said and done.


;)

If you don't like to do something like "bust balls and ballons" [SIC], then why try to do it? Arguments can be made without name calling.

Actually, I might be a fool, but my balloon is is still intact:).

BSK_
07-24-2010, 04:07 PM
uright and ureyes,

Just out of curiosity, are both of you QDMA members?

banc123
07-24-2010, 07:10 PM
You only need to ask one of them. Same IP address (same PC) for both.

WesternNY
07-24-2010, 07:11 PM
The plot thickens.

ureyes
07-24-2010, 11:13 PM
No we are not the same person-

The IP address is likely the same because every computer in this facility runs on a network that is tied to Minneapolis.

Uright is a co-worker, family, friend and land/wildlife manager same to myself and others here. I occasionally talk with him about our disscussion on this forum since I respect his opinion and twice he has gotten so worked up that he felt the need to get on here and voice his 2 cents.

I wouldn't stoop so low that I need to post under a different name and if I were going to do it I wouldn't be so obvious.

Mojostick
07-24-2010, 11:52 PM
While at first glance, $500 seems steep. But to put into perspective, a decade back, I decided that I could take my low ph sandy openings and make productive food plots, thru sweat, toil and science. A few hundred hours of labor and a few grand of manure, liming, fertilizer and seed later, I've reverted those openings to pine plantings for bedding cover.

A good saying is, "people often step over dollars to pick up pennies".

Had someone firmly asserted to me "don't even waste your time" on these open area's and plant them with saplings from the start instead of trying food plots, I frankly would have saved a lot of time, effort, money and emotion.

Sure, I learned. But sometimes learning on your own can be more expensive than somebody who's been there informing you of your looming failure before it happens.

Alpha Doe
07-25-2010, 12:11 AM
Where's uwrong? http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu51/Imatreehugger/smile/happy1.gif http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu51/Imatreehugger/smile/cheesy.gif http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu51/Imatreehugger/smile/cheesy.gif

ureyes
07-25-2010, 12:12 AM
Just out of curiosity, are both of you QDMA members?

BSK, since its an honest question I'm gonna give you an honest answer. Although I don't see where it pertians to anything.

My QDMA membership expired in June and I have yet to renew it.

why? What is a QDMA membership? Its paying a $30 fee, that's what it is. I paid the 30 last year and recieved my issues of QW just like everyone else that pays. I read the magazine and found it to be good but not something I couldn't live without. So this year when it was time to renew I had to wiegh it out.....basically asking "is it worth it" (much like you should do when paying for a $500 property tour)......as I wieghed the options against my current situation I came to the conclusion I couldn't justify forking out the cash for a magazine I really didn't need. Yeah 30 ain't much but wieghted against your family's needs I believe nobody would put QW's ahead of thier family.

This forum is the best thing about the QDMA, hands down and its 100% free. I've said before that it shouldn't be. If I couldn't access this forum without paying the fee than that very well may have swayed my decision but thats not the case.

Will I renew my membership to the QDMA ever again....perhaps when I can justify it against everything else.

Will I continue to visit this forum in the meantime....absolutely....will I feel guilty about it....maybe alittle but if I continue to contribute viable information for others to see and learn from than I likely will not feel guilty.

I was promoting QDM long before I ever bought a membership into the QDMA and will continue to do promote it regardless if I pay the $30 to say I'm a member of the official orginization.

Hope this satisfies your curiousity.

uright
07-25-2010, 12:25 AM
As I diverse, you may wanna skip this little note. I already anwered THE QUESTION_WOULD I PAY $500 to for a tour? THEN ANSWER IS NO! Somehow it went from a tour to an educational adventure. Well....spit the question out. 500 for a tour NO. 500 for an educational course? We have tuition reimbursement so maybe..:p BOTTOM LINE, I get on here to stand up for what I KNOW---hence the name uright-haha not uwrong!!! How the depth of our thinking is displayed. Personally, some should hide their intelligence instead of expressing their ignorance. For the ip address banc123...No, but thanks for the intelligent input. You just helped to prove my point of WHY I WOULD NOT PAY SOMEONE FOR A TOUR...everytime we speak we give someone a tour of our mind and heart. The tour you gave me of the ip address and being the same person, i am sorry sir but you are incorrect. I am pretty direct and feel this nitpicking on others is STUPID and IMMATURE. When ureyes opens his heart and mind to me about hunting and life in general, I always listen and give feedback..as he does the same. You wanna be smart with me then simply PM me and lets chat. If your are standing up for your team, cool and good work. But, please respect the talent, drive, desire, and ability of those of us who may not be rich and famous like some. BSK...I am not sure this is the correct thread for the asking of personal questions for me but feel free to PM me any time. I will respond on my personal laptop so the ip address is different;) ...just kidding. I believe the true roots behind QDMA for each of us could be a little different. Personally, I believe in giving back more to nature than I take. THE END. I do not join clubs for stickers, books(that kill trees by the way), or to be just a clubber. Not to insult anyone. But the NRA is great, I have my lifetime license to hunt and fish, I own property, I teach others to get into the outdoors the right way, and I will do anything I can to help out a good person. Ureyes is a good dude. You may be too but I don't get the complaints on a thread when YOU ASK MY OPINION, YOU WILL GET IT! You know what I am saying. Does it make me less important or not a person of QDMA if I do not have a QDMA membership, do not own property,do not have a lifetime membership to QDMA instead of annual, do not have a lifetime hunting/fishing license, do not mentor new entrants into the sport, do not hunt with every weapon possible-bow,gun,gun,etc. What if I do not hunt in the rain, am I less of a hunter? What if I pay for a 500 dollar tour and get there and it is pouring rain, or 100 degrees? Is the customer getting the same value for their money? I could go on all night against the critics out there. This thread is getting away from the question... :cool: NO I WOULDN"T PAY FOR A TOUR! If you wanna learn how to cook are you going to pay $500 to take a tour of a master CHEF'S KITCHEN? NOT I SIR! Take care and I definitely welcome all feedback. Just send them as a PM so this thread isn't totally destroyed... Thanks for your time and good luck to you all!

Mojostick
07-25-2010, 12:30 AM
Same IP address, yet both post simultaneously after midnight? :eek: :D

ureyes
07-25-2010, 12:54 AM
We work third shift.........maybe thats why we are both grumpy jerks.:D

uright
07-25-2010, 01:45 AM
OK you got me.... posts after midnight really gave me away....hahaha. my real name is mojosticky:eek: :eek: lol....just kidding mojo. Thanks for keeping the humor here. Keep on keeping on....cya;)

maya
07-25-2010, 06:43 AM
No we are not the same person-

The IP address is likely the same because every computer in this facility runs on a network that is tied to Minneapolis.

Uright is a co-worker, family, friend and land/wildlife manager same to myself and others here. I occasionally talk with him about our disscussion on this forum since I respect his opinion and twice he has gotten so worked up that he felt the need to get on here and voice his 2 cents.

I wouldn't stoop so low that I need to post under a different name and if I were going to do it I wouldn't be so obvious.

Let me get this straight, he got so worked up that he felt the need to get on here and voice his 2 cents...............over wether or not someone wants to pay to go to someones property. Your kidding right?

Thayer.qdma
07-25-2010, 07:13 AM
Let's keep this on point guys.

WesternNY
07-25-2010, 08:01 AM
BSK, since its an honest question I'm gonna give you an honest answer. Although I don't see where it pertians to anything.

My QDMA membership expired in June and I have yet to renew it.

why? What is a QDMA membership? Its paying a $30 fee, that's what it is.
.



No you are flat wrong, it is a $30 donation to an orginazation that supports what I think is a passion of yours..... the future of deer hunting.

banc123
07-25-2010, 08:23 AM
For the ip address banc123...No, but thanks for the intelligent input. You just helped to prove my point of WHY I WOULD NOT PAY SOMEONE FOR A TOUR...everytime we speak we give someone a tour of our mind and heart. The tour you gave me of the ip address and being the same person, i am sorry sir but you are incorrect.

Having built some of the first TCP/IP networks, I do have a little experience. You're using a Class A network, which is a given based on the first three numbers in IP address (abc) in abc.def.ghi.jkl Class A networks then identify the network further by the next two sets of three numbers. (def.ghi) which take it down the router address. The last three numbers are specific to the host. (.jkl) A host is a device. Printer, PC, Scanner etc... Class A networks have a limited number of host addresses and each device is assigned its own number by the systems administrator.

On some of the very old networks (decades ago, unix based, before novell) they had random calling of IPs; the user's application would call for an IP address if it needed TCP/IP calls and it would grab the next IP not being used in the limited string. If someone was using one of these older TCP/IP call structures, you should see random device IP addresses each time with each IP record. But the IP down to the device here is the exact same for every record, going back months for both users.

Which is why my comment was, "Same PC". Never said it was the same person.

In the unlikely scenario that someone has come up a network that has a random TCP/IP call structure that just happens to tag two different devices with the exact same host ID every single time both are used over a period of many months, I deeply apologize for indicating the posts came from the same PC vs indicating its the same router and user group.

Really don't want to inflame this thing, just transparency.

bioactive
07-25-2010, 08:27 AM
If you wanna learn how to cook are you going to pay $500 to take a tour of a master CHEF'S KITCHEN? NOT I SIR!

This is a good example and one I will move closer to the context of our visit with Grant Woods. Let's suppose the money itself is not really an issue for you, you are not just interested in cooking but are nuts about it and spend most of your time trying to improve at it, and you have the opportunity to spend 6 hours with one of the top chefs in the world, in his kitchen, just you and your close friend (also a cooking nut) continuously asking questions about how he does things, seeing examples of it, and getting a candid inside look at tips and tricks that he uses, some of which are unpublished.

I suspect there are many, many amateur chefs who would readily cough up $250 for an adventure like that.

This is something that is really odd about deer hunting to me. There are hundreds of golf clinics around the country where people go and spend hundreds of dollars a day to learn from professionals. Amateurs go to a golf coach on a weekly basis and pay not $40 (about what we paid Grant), but $100 and more for an hour of lessons a week. Same with tennis. Think about how much money is spent on basketball, football, and baseball clinics each year.

For some reason, when it comes to hunting, you are supposed to be born knowing how to do it, learn it on your own, learn it from other amateurs, or read about it in books, magazines, and blogs, or you are somehow "tainted."

I am no fool and Grant Woods is not crooked as far as I can tell, as we were characterized by your acknowledged "friend" ureyes. I would rather characterize myself as a guy who is deeply interested in managing deer property and hunting, who is willing and able to pay for knowledge, and Grant as a guy who worked his butt off for a very long time to put himself in a position to make money doing what he loves to do--including imparting his knowledge for what I consider to be a nominal fee.

bioactive
07-25-2010, 08:32 AM
Good stuff there Jim!BTW, thanks for the free tour this month!;)

Big T

Big T. The tour was not free--you earned it with your character, experience, good nature, trustworthiness, and dedication to deer hunting and management. As you know, only a select few people see beyond the edges of my properties;), and you don't see too much looking in from the edges:D .

BSK_
07-25-2010, 09:47 AM
uright,

I didn't know asking if you were a QDMA member was asking for personal information. My apologies. Bu thanks for the response anyways.


ureyes,

Thanks for your explanation.

MDuffy
07-25-2010, 09:53 AM
My QDMA membership expired in June and I have yet to renew it.

why? What is a QDMA membership? Its paying a $30 fee, that's what it is.

This forum is the best thing about the QDMA, hands down and its 100% free. I've said before that it shouldn't be.

And where may I ask do you think the money comes from that keeps this forum running??:rolleyes:

If everyone felt like you this forum would not exist. Membership sustains this organization. Last I heard it was on a bit of a slide already, the last thing we need is for strong supporters to drop their membership just because the magazine "isn't worth $30".

I don't know what I would do without it, it's like crack cocaine, but it's useful information.

smsmith
07-25-2010, 10:33 AM
I agree that there should be at least a few of the forums which are "members only". Take the two or three most frequently used ones and make them that way. I know it would cut down on the number of threads initially, but I think in the long run it would even out. And it would lead to more people joining IMHO.

Paying $30 for a membership to a non-profit organization is nothing. These forums alone are worth well in excess of that amount to me. I know you can access them for free, but I have no problem paying the membership dues. I'm currently considering becoming a lifetime member.

Pineywoods
07-26-2010, 01:20 PM
Would I personally spend the money on the tour probably not. I would more than likely spend that or more to have someone like BSK come to my place to give site specific information and plans. The state of Florida has a program where they will send out a wildlife biologist to consult and give the landowner ideas and I have done this and am about to do it again. With that being said if you have the disposable income and the time to go then more power to you.

BSK_
07-26-2010, 02:19 PM
The state of Florida has a program where they will send out a wildlife biologist to consult and give the landowner ideas and I have done this and am about to do it again.

I highly recommend landowners use this very cheap (usually free) route FIRST. Some of the state biologists are truly sharp cookies.

tncraig75
07-26-2010, 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by Pineywoods
The state of Florida has a program where they will send out a wildlife biologist to consult and give the landowner ideas and I have done this and am about to do it again.

Originally Posted by BSK
I highly recommend landowners use this very cheap (usually free) route FIRST. Some of the state biologists are truly sharp cookies.

http://www.qdma.com/programs/

National Directors

Kip Adams – Certified Wildlife Biologist Kip Adams is the QDMA’s Director of Education and Outreach/Northern U.S., coordinating the REACH program in that region.

A Pennsylvania native, Adams is a 1992 graduate of Penn State University with a B.S. degree in Wildlife and Fisheries Science. In 1995, he earned a Master’s Degree in Wildlife from the University of New Hampshire.

Prior to joining the QDMA as Northeast Regional Director in 2002, Adams worked as a wildlife biologist for the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, and as Deer and Bear Project Leader for the New Hampshire Fish and Game Department.

Joe Hamilton – Certified Wildlife Biologist and QDMA Founder Joe Hamilton is the QDMA’s Director of Education and Outreach/Southern U.S., coordinating the REACH program in that region.

A native of Elizabethtown, N.C., Hamilton holds a Master of Science degree in Wildlife Biology from the University of Georgia’s School of Forest Resources. Hamilton joined the South Carolina Department of Natural Resources in 1979 as Deer Research Biologist. He became Assistant Regional Wildlife Biologist in 1985, a position he held until 1997. Hamilton joined Ducks Unlimited in 1997 as Manager of DU’s Lowcountry Initiative in South Carolina. From February 2001 until joining QDMA full-time, Hamilton served as the ACE Basin & South Lowcountry Project Director for The Nature Conservancy’s South Carolina Chapter. In this role, Hamilton focused on land conservation through acquisition of critical natural areas and the protection of private property through perpetual conservation easements.

The Deer Committee of the Southeastern Section of The Wildlife Society honored Hamilton in 2000 with its Deer Management Achievement Award for outstanding contributions to deer management in the southeastern U.S. He is the fifth of only seven all-time honorees.